Old heavy Japanese plate ID?

[Chrischappell62]

 

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[ARC]

This is called a "divided" plate...

Blue Willow... Moriyama Flow Blue.

 

[CaptEsteban]

NICE !!

 

[Red-Coat]

I don’t think that’s a Moriyama plate, nor is it ‘flow blue’. Moriyama items (the pottery was established in 1911 in MoriMachi, Japan) are almost invariably marked with their name, or a logo including the letters ‘M’ or ‘MM’. The ‘flow blue’ assignation for china is widely misused for anything having a deep cobalt blue colour, but it properly refers to a specific type of blue glaze developed in the 1820s in Staffordshire, England (then spreading elsewhere). The name derives from the fact that the blue colouration of the glaze flowed during firing, creating a blurred edge and a kind of halo effect around the design, which I don’t see on your plate. The decoration is pretty crisp from what I can see.

I would say it’s what is loosely known as “Chinoiserie”… mass-produced in (often unidentified) Chinese and Japanese factories, mainly from the late 1800s onwards, as exportware to the West. When hand painted, that’s almost always marked as such on the back (because it commanded a price premium), and I think your plate will be transferware, with the pattern applied via a paper stencil. Date-wise, I would think sometime around the 1920s-1930s.

The design is “willow pattern”. Despite the oriental appearance, it was conceived by one of Thomas Minton’s artists in England some time around 1790 and has been widely copied by china manufacturers ever since, including mass production in Japan. It’s still in production today. Minton’s artist took his inspiration from styles he had seen on porcelain imported from China in the late 18th Century and, as a marketing ploy, Minton also invented a fable to add a bit of mystique to the design. It goes something like this, although it has no links whatsoever to China (or Japan) and is complete modern fiction:

A wealthy Mandarin has a beautiful daughter called Koong-se. The daughter falls in love with her father’s accounting assistant called Chang. The Mandarin is angry because Chang is a commoner. Chang gets the boot and the Mandarin builds a high fence around his palace to stop the lovers from meeting. His preferred partner for his daughter is a Duke, who arrives by boat with a box of jewels as a wedding gift, and the nuptials are planned for the first day the blossom falls from the willow tree. On the eve of the wedding, Chang sneaks into the palace in disguise and does a runner with Koong-se and the jewels. The alarm is raised and the Mandarin pursues them over a bridge with a whip in his hand. The lovers steal the Duke’s boat and escape to a remote island, where they live happily for years. The Duke eventually learns where they are and sends soldiers to kill them. The gods transform the lovers’ spirits into a pair of doves.

If you look at the plate in detail, you will see all the elements of that story. The doves (at the top of the plate) were a later embellishment to the story and the early designs don’t have them.

 

[ARC]

I don’t think that’s a Moriyama plate, nor is it ‘flow blue’. Moriyama items (the pottery was established in 1911 in MoriMachi, Japan) are almost invariably marked with their name, or a logo including the letters ‘M’ or ‘MM’. The ‘flow blue’ assignation for china is widely misused for anything having a deep cobalt blue colour, but it properly refers to a specific type of blue glaze developed in the 1820s in Staffordshire, England (then spreading elsewhere). The name derives from the fact that the blue colouration of the glaze flowed during firing, creating a blurred edge and a kind of halo effect around the design, which I don’t see on your plate. The decoration is pretty crisp from what I can see.

I would say it’s what is loosely known as “Chinoiserie”… mass-produced in (often unidentified) Chinese and Japanese factories, mainly from the late 1800s onwards, as exportware to the West. When hand painted, that’s almost always marked as such on the back (because it commanded a price premium), and I think your plate will be transferware, with the pattern applied via a paper stencil. Date-wise, I would think sometime around the 1920s-1930s.

The design is “willow pattern”. Despite the oriental appearance, it was conceived by one of Thomas Minton’s artists in England some time around 1790 and has been widely copied by china manufacturers ever since, including mass production in Japan. It’s still in production today. Minton’s artist took his inspiration from styles he had seen on porcelain imported from China in the late 18th Century and, as a marketing ploy, Minton also invented a fable to add a bit of mystique to the design. It goes something like this, although it has no links whatsoever to China (or Japan) and is complete modern fiction:

A wealthy Mandarin has a beautiful daughter called Koong-se. The daughter falls in love with her father’s accounting assistant called Chang. The Mandarin is angry because Chang is a commoner. Chang gets the boot and the Mandarin builds a high fence around his palace to stop the lovers from meeting. His preferred partner for his daughter is a Duke, who arrives by boat with a box of jewels as a wedding gift, and the nuptials are planned for the first day the blossom falls from the willow tree. On the eve of the wedding, Chang sneaks into the palace in disguise and does a runner with Koong-se and the jewels. The alarm is raised and the Mandarin pursues them over a bridge with a whip in his hand. The lovers steal the Duke’s boat and escape to a remote island, where they live happily for years. The Duke eventually learns where they are and sends soldiers to kill them. The gods transform the lovers’ spirits into a pair of doves.

If you look at the plate in detail, you will see all the elements of that story. The doves (at the top of the plate) were a later embellishment to the story and the early designs don’t have them.

? ? ?

Please do a Google search next time before posting such a lengthy response trying to discount my solve.

https://www.google.com/search?sourc...xg-AKHaO6BCEQ4dUDCAs&uact=5#spf=1578834541687

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

Old heavy Japanese plate ID?

"From 1921-1941, wares from Japan exported to the United States had to be marked "Japan" or "Made in Japan". During World War II most ceramics factories manufacturing for export ceased, except Noritake. After the war exports were labelled "Made in Occupied Japan". After 1952 exports were usually marked "Made in Japan" or just "Japan". For porcelain collectors, dating your Japanese piece is relatively easy. If your piece is marked "Nippon," then it was made and imported between 1891 and 1921. If it is marked 'Japan', 'Made in Japan' or 'Made in Occupied Japan', then your piece was made and imported after 1921."

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

? ? ?

Please do a Google search next time before posting such a lengthy response trying to discount my solve.

Oh boy...
Good morning ARC!

 

[Red-Coat]

? ? ?

Please do a Google search next time before posting such a lengthy response trying to discount my solve.

Just because you find an attribution from an unknown source of expertise on Google doesn't mean it's correct. Please also do some proper research on Moriyama marks, Japanese exportware, willow pattern and flow blue (which as I said is a much misused term). Here's a couple of links to get you started:


Japanese Porcelain Marks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_blue

 

[broken_detector]

? ? ?

Please do a Google search next time before posting such a lengthy response trying to discount my solve.

https://www.google.com/search?sourc...xg-AKHaO6BCEQ4dUDCAs&uact=5#spf=1578834541687

Right there with ya, happens to me all the time. Love to prove an item only to have the OP saying otherwise, it's like damn dint ask if u dont want answer.

 

[ARC]

Right there with ya, happens to me all the time. Love to prove an item only to have the OP saying otherwise, it's like damn dint ask if u dont want answer.

This was not the OP... but yes... none the less.

My suggestion to all those out there that "join in" the "what is it" forum is that they do not post an opinion about what someone has posted concerning what an item is UNTIL...

They have researched the potential solve post they do not agree with themselves.

OR...

They know exactly what the OPs item is.

 

[Red-Coat]

Without wishing to labour the point, from the Google link provided, the first two hits that come up (when Googling from the UK) are Pinterest saves and they’re both plates marked “Occupied Japan" and so from the post WWII era. The marks aren’t shown but unless also marked as “Moriyama”, I don’t think they will be from that maker. That’s just an assumption by the seller who has looked for similar designs on the net and wrongly concluded all such plates came out of one factory in Japan. They didn’t. There were numerous other factories copying Moriyama work and generally those pieces are unmarked with respect to maker and only indicate “Made in Japan”.

The next group of hits lead to various eBay and Etsy offerings, including via pickclick and all of the plates depicted are said to have the Moriyama name on the bottom. Most of them give a picture of the mark and it’s the Moriyama 'basket of flowers' mark with the Moriyama name plus “Made in Japan” (although this was not the only mark used by Moriyama):

View attachment 1789202

The same for the multiple listings on the next hit from TIAS (The Internet Auction Shop) site. All Moriyama marked.

The assignation of ‘flow blue’ on most of the listings is erroneous, except that the mis-description has now become so well-established in the ‘antiques’ arena that it’s difficult to shift. One seller says: “This beautiful [1950s] blue and white divided plate features color so saturated it would be called Flow Blue” which is just plain wrong and perpetuates the misunderstanding. Flow blue is not a colour saturation feature… it’s a specific blue glaze that exhibits bleeding into the white groundwork which may or may not be a strong blue colour, as per the link I already provided.

 

[ARC]

 

[ARC]

SHEESH... I knew I should have gone detecting today.

Redcoat ... speak of what you know... for you are just complicating things and confusing the OP.

 

[broken_detector]

SHEESH... I knew I should have gone detecting today.

Redcoat ... speak of what you know... for you are just complicating things and confusing the OP.

+1 to AARC Sometimes its best to let the men talk while the ladies get a perm. Good ID man.

 

[Red-Coat]

SHEESH... I knew I should have gone detecting today.

Redcoat ... speak of what you know... for you are just complicating things and confusing the OP.

I do speak of what I know. The links and pictures you provide do not support your view that this is a Moriyama plate. Unlike the plates you are referencing, it doesn't have the Moriyama mark and that would be exceptionally unusual. Not at all unusual for the many factories copying Moriyama work though.

To reduce the complication, I am confident that this is not a Moriyama plate, nor does it appear to be a flow blue glaze. Showing pictures of actual Noriyama marked plates you've trawled from Google, whether claimed flow blue or not, doesn’t change that opinion (and it is of course only an opinion).

Although probably discovered accidentally, the original purpose of devising a specific chemistry that makes the glaze flow during firing was to diffuse the edges of the pattern to cover up printing mistakes, stilt marks, and other defects from transfer printing. This is flow blue (an extreme example), but I don’t see much sign of that kind of edge-bleeding on the OP’s plate. It looks crisp. Call it ‘flow blue’ if you want (and many people do) but not all deep blue decorated plates are of that type. One of the reasons why other ordinarily-glazed blue and white china has insidiously become termed 'flow blue' is that (especially when the blue is deep) it makes the piece more desirable for collectors.



https://www.rubylane.com/blog/categories/antiques-art/is-it-flow-blue/

 

[63cagedfalcon]

.

 

[Kray Gelder]

Sometimes when one offers an I.D., one may overlook the finer points. Red-Coat may be relatively new here, but I have come to respect the Brit's posts. I thought the information offered provided great detail and history, as do most of his ( assuming gender, please correct if wrong ) writings. Humble pie is swallowed with difficulty.

 

[broken_detector]

.

Gotta love cat fights

 

[ARC]

Ok...

Lets just end this.., by posting THE EXACT plate / dish.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/718658346/blue-willow-grill-plate-divided-plate?ref=sold_out-43&cns=1

 

[Red-Coat]

Sometimes when one offers an I.D., one may overlook the finer points. Red-Coat may be relatively new here, but I have come to respect the Brit's posts. I thought the information offered provided great detail and history, as do most of his ( assuming gender, please correct if wrong ) writings. Humble pie is swallowed with difficulty.

Thank you. I have no problem in being contradicted or proved wrong. It may look like I'm a 'newbie' throwing his weight around and upsetting experienced members but that's not how I would hope to be perceived. The reality is that you know not much about me, apart from the brief introduction I offered when I signed up. As with all forums, a new member gets automatically assigned "Junior Member" or some similar status based on the number of posts they have made... not necessarily in any way reflecting what their actual experience level might be. If Charles Saatchi signed up tomorrow, he would be a junior member too.

If I've offended anyone's sensibilities then I apologise but I'm not just chucking in contrary opinions to be provocative. I'm offering what I know and what my experience has taught me in the hope it may help (as well being here to learn from others of course).