Odyssey Marine Exploration issued the following press release today:

[Admiral de Salee]

the spanish goverment of the early 1600 thru 1830's era were greedy lazy slave masters raping the mines of peru and bolivia and exploting the native indains and african slaves to do the "work"---starting about 400 years ago ---they were greedy then and their greedy now ---what "claim" do they have to the silver ---the famous "we stole it from the locals and it was on our ship being shipped home---so its ours?" ---that they exploted the locals and used them for forced labor to till the silver out of their land so that it could be "shipped" back to spain for it to pay its debts --while the spanish "upper class" lived lavish,vain ,idle and wasteful lives----if anyone has a valid "claim" it should be the country of origin not the spanish and if not them then the finders of the wreck---spain if you "want" your shipwrecked silver and gold--- get off your butts and find them yourself---for gods sake --you have the archives where most if not all the facts about the shipwrecks come from---but then its easier for you to "let" other people do all the work and then "steal" it from them ---just like you did hundreds of years ago ---just a "new" twist on the same old game----yes spain "will" let you see the archive papers and do years of long "research" and put forth all the money and effort---and all the work and when its all said and done ---then they move in a attempt to "grab" everything or tie you up in "legal" knots until you give them a huge hunk or wind up going broke because of years and years of lawyers and red tape---the spanish govt "specializes" in this type of "shakedown"----there is nothing new about this sadly---Ivan

Ivan, I liked your statement so much I quoted it just to see it again..
Spain seems to have civilized themselves from the brutally-oppressive and -exploitative, murderous, thieving dogs of olden times into just lying, thieving-via-the-courts dogs. I would guess that the 2000 court decision on La Galga, etc. had political / diplomatic underpinnings. Our military probably needed flyover clearance or permission to dock our nuke boats and our gov't ["We're from the Government. We're here to help you"] probably exerted pressure on the NC court to rule for Spain.
If we could just bring a two-by-four to bear.. As the late Sam Kinison said of the French lack of cooperation during the Libya bombing, "Sorry we hit your embassy. Our F-111 pilots were tired from flying CLEAR AROUND GIBRALTAR.."
Bah. They stole it back then and they want to re-steal it all now.

 

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[jeff k]

Odyssey Marine Exploration Announces Move to the NASDAQ Stock Market
Thursday June 28, 9:00 am ET


TAMPA, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. currently (AMEX:OMR - News), the world leader in the field of deep-ocean shipwreck exploration, announced today that its application for listing its common stock on The NASDAQ Stock Market LLC® has been approved, and the transfer of trading from the American Stock Exchange to NASDAQ will become effective on or about July 10, 2007. Odyssey Marine Exploration will trade under the symbol NASDAQ:OMEX.

"This decision was reached after careful consideration of capital market alternatives and analysis of the electronic market model, which provides added visibility to our investors," said John C. Morris, Odyssey Marine Exploration CEO and co-founder. "We believe that NASDAQ's electronic multiple market maker structure will provide Odyssey with enhanced exposure and liquidity, while at the same time providing investors with the best prices, the fastest execution, and the lowest cost per trade. We feel the move to NASDAQ is an important step towards future growth of the Company."

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Odyssey has come a long way from the days of trading on the Pink sheets at $0.15 per share, moving to the AMEX, and now about to be officially listed with the Russell 3000, and now again moving from AMEX to the NASDEQ.

Way to go Odyssey!

Tom

 

[mariner]

I find it amazing that anybody living in the United States should have the temerity to criticize Spain's old imperial policies, and to suggest that everything should belong to the original inhabitants of the countries they conquered. See the quotes below. Haven't you heard about Euro-America's treatment of the Indians ?

Also, you should remember that it was the US Government who intervened first in the case of the Juno and LaGalga. Spain only intervened after the Judge ruled that the US Government had no standing in the case. The whole thing started because the USA wanted to protect its own policy that any US Government-owned wreck anywhere in the world remains the property of the US Government, irrespective of the passage of time.

Don't blame Spain for pursuing exactly the same policies as the USA, unless you equally criticize the USA.

And incidentally, many of the indigenous people that Spain conquered were themselves even more cruel than Spain in establishing their own supremacy. In my opinion, Montezuma, for example, made Cortes look almost like a choir boy. So would you give the Mexican treasure to the descendents of the Aztecs, or to the descendents of the various Nations that they took it from, or oppressed in in order to have the lifestyle that enabled them to spend time producing their art objects?

Oh, and just so that I can stay on topic, I hope that Odyssey will soon explain the legitimacy of their action in removing the large number of coins from the so-called Black Swan before seeking legal authorization for their salvage of it.

Mariner

the Spanish government of the early 1600 thru 1830's era were greedy lazy slave masters raping the mines of peru and bolivia and exploting the native indains and african slaves to do the "work"---starting about 400 years ago ---they were greedy then and their greedy now ---what "claim" do they have to the silver ---the famous "we stole it from the locals and it was on our ship being shipped home---so its ours?" ---that they exploted the locals and used them for forced labor to till the silver out of their land so that it could be "shipped" back to spain for it to pay its debts --while the spanish "upper class" lived lavish,vain ,idle and wasteful lives----if anyone has a valid "claim" it should be the country of origin not the spanish and if not them then the finders of the wreck---spain if you "want" your shipwrecked silver and gold--- get off your butts and find them yourself---for gods sake --you have the archives where most if not all the facts about the shipwrecks come from---but then its easier for you to "let" other people do all the work and then "steal" it from them ---just like you did hundreds of years ago ---just a "new" twist on the same old game----yes spain "will" let you see the archive papers and do years of long "research" and put forth all the money and effort---and all the work and when its all said and done ---then they move in a attempt to "grab" everything or tie you up in "legal" knots until you give them a huge hunk or wind up going broke because of years and years of lawyers and red tape---the spanish govt "specializes" in this type of "shakedown"----there is nothing new about this sadly---Ivan

Ivan, I liked your statement so much I quoted it just to see it again..
Spain seems to have civilized themselves from the brutally-oppressive and -exploitative, murderous, thieving dogs of olden times into just lying, thieving-via-the-courts dogs. I would guess that the 2000 court decision on La Galga, etc. had political / diplomatic underpinnings. Our military probably needed flyover clearance or permission to dock our nuke boats and our gov't ["We're from the Government. We're here to help you"] probably exerted pressure on the NC court to rule for Spain.
If we could just bring a two-by-four to bear.. As the late Sam Kinison said of the French lack of cooperation during the Libya bombing, "Sorry we hit your embassy. Our F-111 pilots were tired from flying CLEAR AROUND GIBRALTAR.."
Bah. They stole it back then and they want to re-steal it all now.

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Mariner, I agree with most all you have said concerning the blaming of Spain for past atrocities in the New World. You are correct, there is plenty of blame to go around. I look at it this way, All those people are dead and gone. All that truly matters is the here and now, and for our generations to ensure that we as a society do not repeat the mistakes of the past.
As for Odyssey Marine, well you are assuming that they (Odyssey), did not follow proper protocol concerning the recovery of the "Black Swan", and or operate with in the spirit of International Salvage Law. I would submit to you that they did follow the law concerning there latest recovery efforts, and that will become evident as the facts can be released to the public. Odyssey claims that there is more treasure at the "Black Swan" site, and they will keep that location secret for the time being.


Tom

 

[hmmm]

"All that truly matters is the here and now, and for our generations to ensure that we as a society do not repeat the mistakes of the past."
lets hope the odyssey is not repeating the mistakes of the past.
It would be easy to launder treasure.

 

[mariner]

As for Odyssey Marine, well you are assuming that they (Odyssey), did not follow proper protocol concerning the recovery of the "Black Swan", and or operate with in the spirit of International Salvage Law.

Tom,

As I said to Jeff K, I hope you are right, because until now I have been a great admirer of Odyssey's work.

However, isn't the spirit and intent of salvage law that you produce some evidence to show you have found the wreck, and seek legal authorization to salvage it. The court authorizes you to recover the materials, and place them under the care of the court while it determines who has the right to keep what share, taking into account possible claims by others, such as owners. For practical reasons, of course, the salvor normally holds on to the evidence pending the court decission. For Odyssey to recover such a large amount of treasure while they go through the authorization process doesn't seem to me to be in keeping with that spirit, or indeed with their own past practice. I wonder if they did so with half an eye on the proposed transfer to NASDAQ, which must have been in the works for some time. Some might say that it was a pragmatic response to Spain's recent policy, as the cargo was most likely Spanish, but you have to act with integrity if you want to be treated as a responsible member of the business community, which Odyssey clearly do.

Mariner

Mariner

 

[bobinsd]

I think that Spain should get 50% and Odyssey 50%, but Odyssey should leave 1/2 on the ocean floor. If Spain really wants it, they can recover it themselves and keep whatever is there in excess of 50%. Or, they can pay Odyssey to recover it for them based on a pro-rated cost of operations including prior research.

There has to be a sane solution. Does Spain invest any recovery ops at all? Of course, if it hadn't been for the loss of American lives, we would be dealing with Germany. So what legitimate claim does Spain have at all. Did they (or the French) ever even consider making remunerations to the "descendants", living at the time following WWII, of those who made the ultimate sacrifice. And just look at the residue left behind by their "colonization" efforts. Is there even one country settled by Spain that is not still a pigsty, except where foreigners have been able to bribe the politicos into letting them develop.

Even reading the exploits of Cortez you can easily see the corruption and political machinations at the very beginning. These Machiavellian methods have survived the centuries, inhereted and passed down thru the generations of Euro-Meshicans as accepted forms of proper behavior, which we call greed in the civilized world.

And now they are trying to ship it across the border.

Odyssey... keep the gold. No one deserves it more than you.

 

[spez401]

I agree with what Odyssey has done, and the way they went about it. It is what I would advise a client to do. If they had given up the location of the wreck etc, before "arresting" it in federal court, there is always the possibility that someone else would do so first.

Very often in the legal system, the first to file gets a great deal of deference by the system. Also, If they had brought the "treasure" to spain, even after arresting the wreck, what would they do if the spanish governmet, (in accordance with their official soverign policies, of course) seized all of the cargo as their own?

By removing the property/treasure to the US, Odyssey ensures that they are in fact in control of the property in question. And all other legal games aside, there is an old adage about possession being 9/10s of the law... in some respects, that holds true

steve

 

[mariner]

It will be interesting to see what finally happens with this cargo. I suspect that Odyssey will get to keep the vast majority of it, and that Spain will probably not get anything, because the ship was most likely British, and I think that is what will determine who gets what. The ruling will have important repercussions on other cases, where Spain was using foreign ships for the transport of her treasure. I think Odyssey should have played the removal of the coins by the book, trusted in the due process, and made sure they had good lawyers (which they do). They would not have had to give the exact location of the wreck, and you can be sure that Spain is not going to go looking for a wreck that is already the subject of a claim under International law. It is possible that pirates/rogue treasure hunters might do so, but Odyssey would have legal protection against that kind of incursion, although there are questions about how that would work in practice.

When you resort to sharp practice, you get on a slippery slope that will end up costing you more than you gain in the short term.

Mariner

 

[spez401]

Mariner, I agree with most of what you said. But I think there is an assumption by many (initailly myself included) that Odyssey didn't do everything by the book. Because they went to Gibraltar, offloaded the coins and had them shipped back to the US, many assume that they were trying to avoid a spanish inquisition (pun intended) as to where the coins were from.

I would venture so far as to say that Odyssey knows exactly what wreck they have salvaged, and a lot more information regarding it than we will see in the near future. It could very well be that Spain has zero interest in the wreck at all. But what is more prudent... for Odyssey to remove the coins back to their home base and the place that established jurisdiction and the orders (ie, the US, Tampa, and the US federal courts),.. or for Odyssey to allow a country to seize all their property on the possibility that they have a claim, and then spend millions (and yes, i mean millions) in attorney's fees to try and get a soverign nation to release property because a lower federal court says so?

What they did may look "shady" to some, but in my opinion is perfectly legal and by the book. There is no ONE way to do things. Was this the best way? Maybe. Was it the easiest and most secure way to ensure that the federal court that decided jurisdiction is going to have the last say? yes.

Things may change in the future, but based on what I have seen, read, and heard, I don't fault Odyssey for conducting themselves as they have. I'm still waiting, though, to see how it turns out, along with the rest of you

steve

 

[Darren in NC]

I think Odyssey should have played the removal of the coins by the book, trusted in the due process...

I guess there are those who trust in the gov't to be honest and look out for the people they serve. Then there are those of us who are deeply saddened that big brother from any country has conveniently instituted laws to serve themselves and not the people (territorial waters didn't exist a short time ago). Time-honored salvage law is fast deteriorating under the greed of gov'ts who use their own processes to take away from the little guy and companies who do all the work. Thus, a new breed of pirates are born...and then the gov't condemns the very pirates they helped create. I applaud Odyssey's scruples and I hope they get the lions share of the spoils. I do hope the record will show archaeological integrity from their site, though.

This is not just venting on my part. I am intensely curious, Mariner - and others. Do you really think we should trust the bureaucracies of government to give away what they think is theirs? Really? If so, I respect your view - I just don't understand it. 8)

 

[mariner]

Darren,

I think you have to adapt to the changing situation, but still work within the rules. It's no good wishing that things were different. The salvor/TH's greatest asset is that generally only he/she knows where the wreck actually is, and its identity. It's a big ocean, and you do not have to give the exact location to get the legal rights and protection that you need. Knowledge is power, and you can negotiate and plan from a position of strength.

My personal belief is that in the long term, Odyssey's best interests would have been served by leaving most of the coins in place until it had established its legal rights, because I think that a reputation for trust and honesty are worth so much.

It's as much a pragmatic issue as a moral one for me: there's always a next time, when your reputation will stand you in good stead.

Mariner

 

[jeff k]

Mariner... I can't believe you said that, because Odyssey did everything within the law. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT THEM TO DO

 

[Darren in NC]

Well said, Mariner - very well said. I tried posting this quickly, but was beat to the punch. I'm personally torn on the whole issue. Since our country (USA) was founded upon rebellion against an oppressive gov't and the rights of the individual, I guess part of it has been ingrained in me early on. Yet my spiritual convictions believe in honoring your authority no matter how ridiculous it seems. I agree that a man's reputation and honor should be guarded carefully - even if it means swallowing your pride. I suppose I'll always wrestle with where the pendulum should swing. I truly appreciate your thoughtful reply.

Back on subject...I am as eager to see the outcome of Odyssey's venture as everyone else. Because of their meticulous planning in the past, I just can't understand the appearance of this latest episode. I'm withholding my judgement until the truth is made known. Until then, everything discussed is speculation. We may all be surprised when the truth is known.

 

[Darren in NC]

Jeff, yours and SWR's posts overlapped mine to Mariner. I also agree that Odyssey has done everything within the law. There are mutiple issues at hand here that may need to be clarified, though. Some I agree with, some I don't get...

Retreive from itn'l waters - best, but seems like they're not clear on this one
Retreive from territorial waters - why didn't they wait til all preplanning and permits given? If so, why are they not producing the papers?
Bringing the coins to Tampa - I agree with: smarter to keep the control in hand.
Suck up coins with venturi system - mixed feelings - I prefer archaeological protocol here - coins are more valuable. Was it not cost effective? Maybe they had no choice here ROI-wise.
Labels of Black Swan, Merchant Royal, Mercedes, etc. - big thumbs up - keep us guessing. I would.
Volvo incident - why the big secret? Seems like it would have been great publicity for the hunt. Maybe they were trying to avoid pressure to reveal the location? I dunno.

There are more nuances here going on than just simply saying, "I agree with Odyssey" or "I don't." Again, time will tell. Can't wait

 

[jeff k]

Darren... The Spanish Minister of Culture has now conceded that the coins probably came from intl. waters, and you can be assured proof will be shown that they did. When Odyssey releases the video of the recovery of the coins you'll see it was done properly. I'm not sure if they did it with a venturi system, but if they had done it one coin at a time it would have taken over a year. With expenses of $35,000 a day, I'm sure you can see why it was necessary to speed things up. Odyssey did arrest the site before starting recovery, so everything was done legally.

 

[mariner]

Jeff K.

I apologise if I have got my facts and dates wrong. Remind me:

1. When did Odyssey recover the coins?
2. What date did they file for the arrest of the ship?

I am sure you will have this information readily to hand.

Best wishes,

Mariner

 

[mariner]

Sorry Jeff,

and of course the crucial date, in respect of my comments:

When was the warrent/permit issued confirming their rights to remove furher materials from the wreck ?

Mariner

 

[mariner]

Jeff,

Let me see if I can answer my own questions:

1. Odyssey applied to the court in Tampa on Wednesday May 15th for the arrest of this wreck.

2. By May 19th, four days later, according to your own posting on this thread, Franklin Mint announced that they were having discussions with Odyssey about acquiring all the coins from the so-called Black Swan, and others were reporting that 500,000 coins had been recovered.

Not bad progress in four days if

Odyssey did arrest the site before starting recovery, so everything was done legally.

as you say.

And oh yes,

I think the answer to my final question is that no conclusion has yet been reached by the Court, and no go-ahead given for further recovery of materials, pending investigations into the questions of ownership etc.

I do not think that the law states the maximum amount of material that may be removed from a wreck and presented to the court to confirm the existence of the wreck and the finder's evidence that it has been found, but Darren's original question was whether Odyssey had acted both within the letter and the spirit of the law.

I do not think what they did was illegal, but I do think it appears to be sharp practice, and not to their credit. I hope I am proved wrong.

Mariner