ScottyLee
Jr. Member
Comments sent.
Notice of Development of Rulemaking, Chapter 1A-31, Exploration and Salvage of H
- Thread starter FISHEYE
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Jonnyreb
Sr. Member
This is a sickening develpment. You know folks, I spent most of my adult years and the latter part of my teenage years in the service of this country, and was called on to fight for our right to Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
This law and those like it go against all that millions of us have sacrificed for.
This cannot pass. This is pure communism, and if such legislation as this passes, I'm afraid that none of us will have the right to anything, whether its an arrowhead collection and a few coins and metal bits, or ownership of our own homes "The Amercan Dream".
I must ask this question now....
What the Heck has happened to America?!!!!
You are no longer the country that I fought for...So what has happened?
This law and those like it go against all that millions of us have sacrificed for.
This cannot pass. This is pure communism, and if such legislation as this passes, I'm afraid that none of us will have the right to anything, whether its an arrowhead collection and a few coins and metal bits, or ownership of our own homes "The Amercan Dream".
I must ask this question now....
What the Heck has happened to America?!!!!
You are no longer the country that I fought for...So what has happened?
Darren in NC
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Great job, scubatreasure and all.
I would be all for stiffening the fines and punishment of illegal looting, but it really is a crying shame to see our gov't officials cut off the very sector that gave them the vast majority of their projects. It would be a great move to be inclusive and work together, but I have my suspicions that the agenda is already in place. If we get enough response, we can turn the tide on their assumptions that it will sneak through.
I would be all for stiffening the fines and punishment of illegal looting, but it really is a crying shame to see our gov't officials cut off the very sector that gave them the vast majority of their projects. It would be a great move to be inclusive and work together, but I have my suspicions that the agenda is already in place. If we get enough response, we can turn the tide on their assumptions that it will sneak through.
ivan salis
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WE THE PEOPLE NEED TO TELL THEM
* not just no but HELL NO. to us having to beg and crawl and ask a by your leave my lord? to get what by rights is the american dream --poor guy finds a wreck gets rich ( the working man catches a break -- for once in his life --poor working man finding a wreck or hitting the lottos about the only hope hes got these days of getting his head up outta debt. --wages are flat and money is tight -- price of stuff thru the roof --now your going to take his only hope left away --steal the dream away from the poor man * well when a poor man can't make it legally then hes only going to do what hes gotta to eat. -- then so be it. when the state makes folks into crooks since they will not allow it to be done legally -- then the people at large will turn a "blind eye" to looting since the state will be seen as "unjust and unfair" -- if the state has a decent and fair system in place folks will not condone looting but if not--- they will say oh well the state called the tune -- so now the state best be ready to dance. simply put the state does not have enough "bodies or budget" to stop the onslaught of looting they will tigger. priceless items will get melted for there silver and gold worth --- one of a kind special items will go to rich collectors via the blackmarket never to be seen again in public .
this is what they will make via these rules--- a frankenstein that will turn on them in the end.
* not just no but HELL NO. to us having to beg and crawl and ask a by your leave my lord? to get what by rights is the american dream --poor guy finds a wreck gets rich ( the working man catches a break -- for once in his life --poor working man finding a wreck or hitting the lottos about the only hope hes got these days of getting his head up outta debt. --wages are flat and money is tight -- price of stuff thru the roof --now your going to take his only hope left away --steal the dream away from the poor man * well when a poor man can't make it legally then hes only going to do what hes gotta to eat. -- then so be it. when the state makes folks into crooks since they will not allow it to be done legally -- then the people at large will turn a "blind eye" to looting since the state will be seen as "unjust and unfair" -- if the state has a decent and fair system in place folks will not condone looting but if not--- they will say oh well the state called the tune -- so now the state best be ready to dance. simply put the state does not have enough "bodies or budget" to stop the onslaught of looting they will tigger. priceless items will get melted for there silver and gold worth --- one of a kind special items will go to rich collectors via the blackmarket never to be seen again in public .
this is what they will make via these rules--- a frankenstein that will turn on them in the end.
rssharpetx
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- Sep 6, 2006
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posted comment
rgecy
Bronze Member
Here are some great comments from an email I recieved from Mel Fsihers. I went back and posted these comments to the state as well.
Robert
1. We are against any rules or regulations that would hinder Florida’s responsible historical shipwreck salvors from their continued recovery of treasures and artifacts, such as the current proposed rules.
2. Under the Revised and Published Rule 1A-31.0092 (3) c, d, e it declares that permit areas shall have a "Buffer Zone" of 500 yards width from: navigation channels, exempted areas as defined in this chapter and excluded areas as defined in this chapter. These areas are defined in 1A-31.0042 and 1A-31.0045. This means no one will get a permit within 500 yards of a public recreation area (i.e. public beach) which translates to about one fourth of a mile from any Florida shoreline. The entire coastline of Florida is off limits for 1500 feet. This is not fair because history shows us that the majority of shipwrecks were blown toward or onto shore by hurricanes. The vast majority of shipwrecks on Florida's submerged lands are probably included within this area. It also means no one (without a grandfathered in Admiralty Claim) will get a permit within 500 yards of any inland waters, inlets, National Park systems, National Marine Sanctuaries such as the Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary), State Parks, Local public recreation areas, resource conservation areas and resource management areas, areas conveyed to public or private entities............. etc.
3. We believe the Division of Historical Resources should do more to work with the private sector salvors of Florida and encourage salvors to come into a fair, even handed and just permit process. Rule 1A-31 does not seek to do this.
4. We believe Florida’s private sector salvors have done an excellent job of recovering and preserving our maritime heritage, to the direct benefit of the public and at little cost to the taxpayers and should be allowed to continue with as little interference as possible. Rule 1A-31 does not do this.
5. We do not want our tax dollars used by state archaeologists to dive on shipwrecks. The private sector salvors have done a great job, using their own money, with Florida getting the benefits by receiving 20% of the conserved artifacts and treasures recovered. We do not support any changes to rule 1A-31 that would make it harder for the salvors to continue.
6. We feel the new rule is unfair because it treats commercial salvors as second class citizens due to the fact that it does not give the same standards to commercial salvors as Rule 1A-32 gives to universities and nonprofit organizations. For example, the turnover or response time to get permits for 1A-32 is two weeks while commercial groups have waited months and in some cases, years. Also 1A-32 uses students as excavators while commercial enterprises must use experts.
7. We think Rule 1A-31 is unfair because university and nonprofit 1A‐32 permit holders get a search & survey, recovery & salvage permit ALL in their first permit while 1A-31 requires commercial salvors to obtain only search & survey permits with rules that vary from salvor to salvor. NO recovery & salvage permits (unless already grandfathered in by Federal Admiralty Claims) have been issued to commercial groups in Florida for over 15 years.
8. We are opposed to the rule because individuals who have current contracts for exploration have not all been individually notifid of the workshops and hearings. It is also unfair that when they are notified, the locations of such meetings repeatedly take place at locations remote to the majority of the private and commercial entitie that it will affect. Therefore, if a few dozen commercial groups from the Keys want to attend, they need to drive either 9 hours to St. Augustine area or 12 hours to the Tallahassee area (and back.) This means they have to miss THREE days work to attend. Two days driving and one day at the meetings. Future meetings should be held in a central location of the state such as the Orlando area to accommodate the majority of thestakeholders. Additionally, these meetings should not be held between June 1 and Sept 30th of any year, as that is the 120 day window for good weather conditions on the majority of the archaeological sites worked by commercial salvors in Florida.
9. We are opposed to the rule because it insists that an archaeologist be on board each salvage vessel during each and every surve and excavation. This is unnecessary because most electronic surveys are non‐intrusive and the majority of actual excavation areas are empty or turn out to be modern intrusions such as lawn chairs, discarded shrimp or lobster traps, beer cans and in some cases, U.S. military bombs in old target practice areas. Of course when major conglomerates of shipwreck material or structure are found, it would then be appropriate for the archaeologist to be on board to supervise the proper mapping and recording of these areas The reality is that the majority of the archaeologist’s time is spent working with a cartographer, mapping and analyzing data collected during remote sensing surveys and identifying patterns from other known sites in an effor to decide which anomalies to excavate first, and writing reports after poring through the reams of data provide by the artifact recovery process. His presence on the site is not necessary until significant cultural deposits or structures are encountered.
10. The new rule should address some sort of Annual Adjudication of Title from the State to the permit holder rather than "Transfer of objects" in exchange for recovery services. This way, the state can receive donations of artifacts, because it is usually impossible to put an actual dollar value on each and every artifact found and this would create much conusion in tax law since the transfer of object has an undeterminable value.
11. This rule creates more work and overhead for DHR to manage their resources. Permits should be issued for a minimum of three years, much like the Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary, thereby alleviating costs to the DHR by reducing paperwork.
12. We feel this rule is unfair because commercial salvors are constantly in the research and development stages of using new technlogy for survey, excavation and conservation much of which is proprietary information. This rule eliminates many future possibilities and opportunities for research, development and testing of these new technologies.
13. We feel this rule is unfair because it requires the permit holder to turn over thousands of dollars worth of proprietary surveyresults without any guarantee that they will be allowed to salvage a site once it is found. There is no incentive for the permit holder to obtain a survey & exploration permit. An alternative would be to use wording similar to that in the Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary, which does not even require a "Survey & Exploration" permit at all and yet it seems to have been beneficial.
Robert
1. We are against any rules or regulations that would hinder Florida’s responsible historical shipwreck salvors from their continued recovery of treasures and artifacts, such as the current proposed rules.
2. Under the Revised and Published Rule 1A-31.0092 (3) c, d, e it declares that permit areas shall have a "Buffer Zone" of 500 yards width from: navigation channels, exempted areas as defined in this chapter and excluded areas as defined in this chapter. These areas are defined in 1A-31.0042 and 1A-31.0045. This means no one will get a permit within 500 yards of a public recreation area (i.e. public beach) which translates to about one fourth of a mile from any Florida shoreline. The entire coastline of Florida is off limits for 1500 feet. This is not fair because history shows us that the majority of shipwrecks were blown toward or onto shore by hurricanes. The vast majority of shipwrecks on Florida's submerged lands are probably included within this area. It also means no one (without a grandfathered in Admiralty Claim) will get a permit within 500 yards of any inland waters, inlets, National Park systems, National Marine Sanctuaries such as the Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary), State Parks, Local public recreation areas, resource conservation areas and resource management areas, areas conveyed to public or private entities............. etc.
3. We believe the Division of Historical Resources should do more to work with the private sector salvors of Florida and encourage salvors to come into a fair, even handed and just permit process. Rule 1A-31 does not seek to do this.
4. We believe Florida’s private sector salvors have done an excellent job of recovering and preserving our maritime heritage, to the direct benefit of the public and at little cost to the taxpayers and should be allowed to continue with as little interference as possible. Rule 1A-31 does not do this.
5. We do not want our tax dollars used by state archaeologists to dive on shipwrecks. The private sector salvors have done a great job, using their own money, with Florida getting the benefits by receiving 20% of the conserved artifacts and treasures recovered. We do not support any changes to rule 1A-31 that would make it harder for the salvors to continue.
6. We feel the new rule is unfair because it treats commercial salvors as second class citizens due to the fact that it does not give the same standards to commercial salvors as Rule 1A-32 gives to universities and nonprofit organizations. For example, the turnover or response time to get permits for 1A-32 is two weeks while commercial groups have waited months and in some cases, years. Also 1A-32 uses students as excavators while commercial enterprises must use experts.
7. We think Rule 1A-31 is unfair because university and nonprofit 1A‐32 permit holders get a search & survey, recovery & salvage permit ALL in their first permit while 1A-31 requires commercial salvors to obtain only search & survey permits with rules that vary from salvor to salvor. NO recovery & salvage permits (unless already grandfathered in by Federal Admiralty Claims) have been issued to commercial groups in Florida for over 15 years.
8. We are opposed to the rule because individuals who have current contracts for exploration have not all been individually notifid of the workshops and hearings. It is also unfair that when they are notified, the locations of such meetings repeatedly take place at locations remote to the majority of the private and commercial entitie that it will affect. Therefore, if a few dozen commercial groups from the Keys want to attend, they need to drive either 9 hours to St. Augustine area or 12 hours to the Tallahassee area (and back.) This means they have to miss THREE days work to attend. Two days driving and one day at the meetings. Future meetings should be held in a central location of the state such as the Orlando area to accommodate the majority of thestakeholders. Additionally, these meetings should not be held between June 1 and Sept 30th of any year, as that is the 120 day window for good weather conditions on the majority of the archaeological sites worked by commercial salvors in Florida.
9. We are opposed to the rule because it insists that an archaeologist be on board each salvage vessel during each and every surve and excavation. This is unnecessary because most electronic surveys are non‐intrusive and the majority of actual excavation areas are empty or turn out to be modern intrusions such as lawn chairs, discarded shrimp or lobster traps, beer cans and in some cases, U.S. military bombs in old target practice areas. Of course when major conglomerates of shipwreck material or structure are found, it would then be appropriate for the archaeologist to be on board to supervise the proper mapping and recording of these areas The reality is that the majority of the archaeologist’s time is spent working with a cartographer, mapping and analyzing data collected during remote sensing surveys and identifying patterns from other known sites in an effor to decide which anomalies to excavate first, and writing reports after poring through the reams of data provide by the artifact recovery process. His presence on the site is not necessary until significant cultural deposits or structures are encountered.
10. The new rule should address some sort of Annual Adjudication of Title from the State to the permit holder rather than "Transfer of objects" in exchange for recovery services. This way, the state can receive donations of artifacts, because it is usually impossible to put an actual dollar value on each and every artifact found and this would create much conusion in tax law since the transfer of object has an undeterminable value.
11. This rule creates more work and overhead for DHR to manage their resources. Permits should be issued for a minimum of three years, much like the Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary, thereby alleviating costs to the DHR by reducing paperwork.
12. We feel this rule is unfair because commercial salvors are constantly in the research and development stages of using new technlogy for survey, excavation and conservation much of which is proprietary information. This rule eliminates many future possibilities and opportunities for research, development and testing of these new technologies.
13. We feel this rule is unfair because it requires the permit holder to turn over thousands of dollars worth of proprietary surveyresults without any guarantee that they will be allowed to salvage a site once it is found. There is no incentive for the permit holder to obtain a survey & exploration permit. An alternative would be to use wording similar to that in the Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary, which does not even require a "Survey & Exploration" permit at all and yet it seems to have been beneficial.
Leebo in SC
Full Member
Comments Sent
Leebo
Leebo
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
HIO, As usual, this will also bleed over to land treasures. Once one state does it, the others follow rapidly. . So get to cracking peeps, if you wish to keep detecting. After all, coins minted before 1956, are archaeologically classified thingies and so you are committing a crime by digging one up. Next year it will be coins prior to 1957 and so on each year.
Detecting is only as strong as it's weakest link. Destroy it one link at a time.
Don Jose de La Mancha
Detecting is only as strong as it's weakest link. Destroy it one link at a time.
Don Jose de La Mancha
ivan salis
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correct real me amingo --we must hang together before we are hung one at a time. Ivan
G.I.B.
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Real de Tayopa said:
hummm... I wonder what would happen if you called them up and said, "Hello, I was metal detecting and found some coins. When I got home and cleaned them I noticed one of the coins, a penny, was minted in 1953 and qualifies as an archaeological find. Would you please send someone over right away to pick it up."
Historic Preservation
500 S. Bronough Street
Tallahassee, FL 32399-0250
(850) 245-6333
OP
OP
FISHEYE
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Re: Notice of Development of Rulemaking, Chapter 1A-31, Exploration and Salvage
guy in back,
That idea would work if you got everyone in florida to think they had valuable archaeological pennies prior to that date and have them all call in.Its called mass hysteria.Most rumors are spread on the internet these days.The sheep will follow.Im sure the workers at the Historic Preservation dept wouldnt be able to handle all the calls.But then again,they made the rules so they have to work!
guy in back,
That idea would work if you got everyone in florida to think they had valuable archaeological pennies prior to that date and have them all call in.Its called mass hysteria.Most rumors are spread on the internet these days.The sheep will follow.Im sure the workers at the Historic Preservation dept wouldnt be able to handle all the calls.But then again,they made the rules so they have to work!
ivan salis
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as yes the famous "older than 50 year rule* stupid isn't it? accord to that rule ALL WHEAT PENNIES WILL SOON BE ARCHAEOLOGOGICAL FINDS since the last wheat cents were made in 1959* and next year is 2009 --yep 50 years old -- and at that rate in 2014 all 1964 and before 90% silver coins will be archaeological finds thus by law illegal to keep * and by 2020 even the 1970 silver 40% halves will be archaeological finds a mere 11 1/3 years from now only crap clad will be offically "legal" to keep as finds at this rate----
ashlee1228
Full Member
comment sent
"Treasurehunters" shipwreck hunters, divers etc have let this happen. For the past 30 plus years treasure has been recovered and very little done to create a system to continue to protect the rights of those that work so hard, given Fishers and others have made valid attempts but really has any one person or group gone out of their way to put the same pressure on the State, this mentality is the world over, worse its a done deal was for years most just were too busy diving to notice. Theres still time to make some valid knocks in return and make it hard for them (Archaeologist Nazi`s bent on stopping all of the above) next time there is an archaeological dive try force local issues such as their certifications from local dive agencies, are they qualified enough, next document them flapping about over a wrecksite learning to use a dredge, it would not take long to get a small documentry with ACCURATE data captured, no biased views just facts. Then return the favour with the media to start, create pressure and they will come to the table, win the media, public and schools. There is a place for Archaeologists not all though and not these rules. Please dont jump down my throat read this and then think how much given the amount of people in the industry and time has been spent to protect your rights? A small documentry some brochures if everyone chipped in and educated the masses then this could still be altered, good luck GH
I agree with a lot of what GFH says.This is a perfect time to mount an assault against any
special interest groups that are trying to take away our rights.With the financial mess that's
going on ,and the public's outrage with all the pork-barrel spending by special interest groups
that have put us in this mess,I can't believe an agency of the government trying to eleminate
a group of people who are willing to finance projects with their own money,and take all the
risks.I don't believe the public wants to take money from public projects,and even education,
and pay for publicly funded salvors,when private enterprise is already doing the job for free,
plus the state get's a cut.Once the public sees the insanity of this,I hope they will come down
hard on these special interest groups.We just need to shine the light on what they are doing
behind the scene.A government of the people,by the people,and FOR THE PEOPLE. HH Joe
special interest groups that are trying to take away our rights.With the financial mess that's
going on ,and the public's outrage with all the pork-barrel spending by special interest groups
that have put us in this mess,I can't believe an agency of the government trying to eleminate
a group of people who are willing to finance projects with their own money,and take all the
risks.I don't believe the public wants to take money from public projects,and even education,
and pay for publicly funded salvors,when private enterprise is already doing the job for free,
plus the state get's a cut.Once the public sees the insanity of this,I hope they will come down
hard on these special interest groups.We just need to shine the light on what they are doing
behind the scene.A government of the people,by the people,and FOR THE PEOPLE. HH Joe
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Agreed, it is a perfect time. Most Archaeological depts will be finding that their funding is being cut or even eliminated. They might understand that their best chance for work is to encourage exploration and recoveries on both land and sea.
They just might be willing to foment a review of the present laws in order to encourage exploration, which means more work opportunities for them. If we work together, it will be far better for both private salvage and Archaeological ends.
If things go down the drain, they will quickly learn on which side of their bread the butter is.
Don Jose de La Mancha
They just might be willing to foment a review of the present laws in order to encourage exploration, which means more work opportunities for them. If we work together, it will be far better for both private salvage and Archaeological ends.
If things go down the drain, they will quickly learn on which side of their bread the butter is.
Don Jose de La Mancha
Red_desert
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ivan salis said:
Yes, I just had a thought too...what about all the landfills and garbage dumps that are older than 50 years? Are they going to become archaeological sites of the future? Or does that mean they already...perhaps going to be off limits?
Voter roll purging...did you just see some of the news headlines? Hard to believe what I just read...how can they eliminate over 1 million registered voters from Indiana? it is my state, what's the deal here...
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