North of Zuma beach, sandhill dunes, N side of pacific coast hwy

[stefen]

The rip-rap was transported and used mainly in OC and SD counties...

I was involved solely in the open-pit mining operation and restoration...not in the placement of the groins...

My graduate thesis was on open pit mine restoration and was published and eventually led to this project...

 

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[boogeyman]

Cool! I was down on the beach almost every day when they built the groins N. of Newport Beach, was wondering if we crossed paths. Was showing someone where PCH was buried between Newport & Huntington on Google Earth a few weeks back, amazing how well the groins worked.

 

[MitchelN]

You guys are talking about something of interest to me. I have been out metal detecting recently again. I used to do it back in the 80s and lost interest but recently I have gotten interested in nugget hunting so I MineLabbed up for those trips to Randsburg and Arizona. When I am here in Santa Monica I want to do something so I go out on the beaches again.

I found this encrusted and embedded 'knife like' relic on a Santa Monica Bay beach. We have been trying to estimate how long it would take for a knife to become so encrusted. At the very tip the blade is exposed but not very rusty.

It was found at low tide and has been in the water for many years. I get impression from it that it is quite old but I don't know for sure.

Do you know who would be able to tell me if it is 100, 200 or more years old?

https://picasaweb.google.com/101421522673623412677/EncrustedKnife?authkey=Gv1sRgCOrk9MO2koL-5gE#

I just reposted the link to the pictures.

Mitchel

 

[pegleglooker]

I couldn't get the link to work.... maybe its me

 

[MitchelN]

Sorry about that ... I think this full link will work.

https://picasaweb.google.com/101421522673623412677/EncrustedKnife?authkey=Gv1sRgCOrk9MO2koL-5gE#

 

[pegleglooker]

I wonder what it would look like if it was x-rayed like they do on TV when they find artifacts....

 

[Mackaydon]

Buddy Pegleg:
Does this help?
https://picasaweb.google.com/101421...key=Gv1sRgCOrk9MO2koL-5gE#5603869733101880626
Don.....

 

[pegleglooker]

I got the pixs fine and I would love to see what comes out of it... But, I was wondering if there was a way to x-ray it ( not here but at a hospital ) to see what's inside.... Like they do on the History Channel....

 

[MitchelN]

That is a good question about X-Ray or something. Someone suggested that I take it to a local university and they could tell me more about it. Does UCLA have a department that keeps track of 'finds' for Los Angeles County? I have also just weighed it and it weighs about 2 pounds. If you are some place on the westside tomorrow I could show it to you. If not I will be back from Las Vegas and the Arizona desert by next Saturday.

 

[pegleglooker]

I'm in the Inland Empire, but will gladly wait your find... Good Luck

 

[Tom_in_CA]

MitcheIN, as a 30+ yr. veteran of beach storm hunting here in CA, I've dug untold countless things like that. All sorts of fossilized conglomerates of fused iron, steel, sand, pebbles, rock, etc.... I've saved a lot of it, just for conversation sakes, WHEN they contain coins. Ie.: a nail or spike or something that ....... like yours ..... leaches out through the decomposition process, fuses with the sand and minerals in cesspool like conditions in the bedrock. And sometimes coins, that happened to be in the proximety of the rotting iron/steel object, get fused in with the mass. So when you pull them up, you can sometimes see the rims of coins sticking out at you.

This is because for these formations to form, it has to be an un-moving still-object. Because if it were loose, and moving in and with the seasonal regular sand movement, it would be tumbled clean and erode to nothing eventually (since steel and iron rust fast in harsh salt water environment). But when the rusting object is stuck in the bedrock (or way far back in the dunes where storms haven't gotten back to in 50 or 100+ yrs.), they just decompose into these interesting growing shapes, incorporating in what's around them. And since bedrock like this, is often the depth to which coins since too (since they can't sink further than bedrock), thus you often find multiple nails, and some coins, all fused together, since they all tend to find themselves at this level, over time.

Then at some point, a storm erodes down to bedrock, and these things get released into the regular inter-tidal zone. Then you come along and find it within a few years

The reason I tell you all this, is that I'm convinced the process does not take THAT long to happen. I have seen, for example, mere wheaties or buffalos (relatively recent drops) fused with such masses. And the iron itself, might be a RR spike for instance. (definate tell-tale RR spike, NOT a ship spike of some sort). And since the RR's didn't lace CA till the 1870s at the earliest, you can see that these things don't necessarily have to be that old (ie.: mission era, etc...)

Thus you may simply have a 1950s butter knife, for instance. JMHO.

 

[MitchelN]

JMHO,

Thank you for your insight. It is information like this that I need for this and other objects that I might find. Of course one of the reasons I want to know more about this object is 'what else should I be looking for near' where I found this object.

I have had some friends tell me that this process would only take about 5 years but I know they are mistaken. The hunt for this object's real age will be be good for me. I will learn a lot of history in the process and make a few friends also.

If you would like to look at the 'encrusted knife' please let me know.

Mitchel

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Mitch, I know it's exciting when you find your first fossilized piece of rotting iron like that, but trust me: once you've found hundreds of them, you just pitch them in the trash. We unfondly call them "submarine parts", and pitch them in the trash. Only when they have coin stuck in them, do we save them. I've got some saved, where I've never dis-lodged the coins (just to save the cool effect, and keep the guessing game up of what the coin might be). Other times, you can see enough of the coin protruding, to see that it's a merc, or a memorial, or a buffalo, etc.... But if it's just the iron alone, it's just junk. No need to "date it", if it's most likely just 50 or 100 yr. old spike, nails, butter knives, etc.... If they really excite you, I've got a bunch I'll sell you for cheap

 

[Calculatin Cal]

There are numerous wrecks along the coast...and its said that Spain (Philippine) has a record of all ships lost along the Pacific coast line of North and South America...

Apparently there are known galleon wreck sites that cannot be identified or connected to the Spanish records...which isn't all that unusual.

I wasn't aware of a wreck near Catalina, but there are several within the channel island chain.

I know this is a older thread, just had to throw in my 2 cents
A few galleon wrecks around Catalina,
Santa Marta-1582, on return trip from Manila to Acapulco
Nuestra Senora de Ayuda-1641, on return trip from Manila to Acapulco
San Sebastian-1754, Manila going to Philippines, chaced by pirate George Compton into the rocks just west of Catalina.
San Pedro ?,

 

[Tom_in_CA]

yes cal, a few manilla galleons wrecks along the west coast. For 150+ yrs, there were about 2 ships per year, that made the round trip voyage. So 300+ manilla galleons caught site of the west coast somewhere around the parallel of SF (where the currents swept them westwards to). Then once the spotted land, they'd turn south on their way back to Mexico. That was from the mid1500s to the mid 1700's. Some were lost and never heard from again.

There was one found along the Baja CA coast a few decades ago, because beach-goers kept finding all sorts of old porcelin showing up on the beach, after beach storm erosion, on a super remote section of Baja CA beach. Research was done, and it was determined that it had been one of the galleons. But get this: try as they may, they found nothing but mostly broken up porcelin wares.

Because you see, unlike the mel fisher type stuff, our west coast galleon traffic was not for the purpose of shipping gold and silver. Oh sure, the traders might have taken gold or silver TO Manilla, for the purposes of BUYING the trade items, but on their return trip to the USA, they'd have only had the raw materials, cargo, and such that they'd gone to get, in the first place. So it'd be things like silk, spices, porcelins, etc..... So unfortunately, not very exciting for modern th'ing purposes.

 

[Calculatin Cal]

I get what your saying Tom, most of my research material just say they contained "Far East treasures" and no salvage attempts were made.
all except the San Sebastian which was rumored to contain gold & silver bullion.

 

[MitchelN]

I will have a new picture of the 'unencrusted' knife in the next week or so ... I can't tell exactly what it is now but about the Spanish ships. I was talking with one guy I met who was familiar with the ships around Florida and the ships of Mexico and he said that the Pacific ships were much larger. He told me about the one in Baja and mentioned some other locations. How many ships were never found going to or coming back from the Phils and China?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

MitcheIN, I read somewhere that for nearly 200 yrs. (mid or late 1500s, to mid or late 1700s) there was an average of 1 or 2 manilla galleon trips per year, from Mexico, to Manilla, and back. So do the math, and you can see there's ...... what ..... 300 to 400 such voyages. And there was record of how many of those were lost and never heard from again. But even if you found the citation of how many of those went missing (because I'm sure the records exist), it still wouldn't do you much good. Not only did they carry nothing back exact non-metalic trade goods (china, porcelin, spices, tea, silk, etc...) But also because they could have gone down in the middle of the ocean. That is, any "missing" ships weren't necessarily beaches, ala mel fisher style, along our coast.

And another thing that separates our coastal shipwrecks from the type you see on the "treasure" beaches of the gulf of mexico type beaches: The off-shore sandy shallows in the gulf of Mexico there are "accidents waiting to happen". There are sections of beach there were you can wade off shore, and still only be up to your chest in water, weeeaaay out there. Contrast to most CA beaches (esp. NW facing ones), and the water drops off to deeep drops real quickly. So the geography, types of shipping (ie.: cargo they contained), history, and off-shore topography is vastly different, and not condusive here for the type stuff you read about that's been found in the gulf of Mexico.

For a very short time during the gold rush, there was shipments of gold, by ship, back around the horn going eastward. But by the mid 1800s, go figure, ships were no longer the wooden galleon type affairs. They'd be more seaworthy metal ships. Still though, some of them were lost. But again, nothing like what you read about for the gulf of mexico. You'd need deep sea submarine recovery techniques to reach these wrecks! And this gold-rush era shipping was very short-lived, as the transcontinental RR put an end to that soon thereafter.

And hey, if you want some more fossilized iron conglomorates to muse over (wondering if they're spanish, etc...), you ought to see how many such whatzits show up after storms here on the Monterey bay. We get to where we don't even dig the large hubcap type signals, because we already know they're going to be those "submarine" parts. Trust me: they're modern junk, that quickly takes on blob form after decades in the salt water brine.

 

[Calculatin Cal]

"For a very short time during the gold rush, there was shipments of gold, by ship, back around the horn going eastward. But by the mid 1800s, go figure, ships were no longer the wooden galleon type affairs. They'd be more seaworthy metal ships. Still though, some of them were lost. But again, nothing like what you read about for the gulf of mexico. You'd need deep sea submarine recovery techniques to reach these wrecks! And this gold-rush era shipping was very short-lived, as the transcontinental RR put an end to that soon thereafter."

Winfield Scott-1853, Channel islands. it has been hunted and picked, but you cant touch that no more.
Yankee Blade-1854 thats another story.
lots of stuff to dream about, & I don't see anyone asking for funding..... So Tom cant we all dream a little

 

[MitchelN]

Ok, I have now uploaded the unencrusted knife or blade pictures and I am still puzzled. The weight is 13 ounces. It seems heavier than what a steel blade of equal size would be. The blade 'edge' is rough or pitted and the sides are not of a polished texture. The encrustment was removed with vinegar only over the period of about 6 weeks. I will keep it and wonder who can help to tell me if in fact it was a discarded aircraft part or some type of tool or knife blade.

https://picasaweb.google.com/101421522673623412677/EncrustedKnife?authkey=Gv1sRgCOrk9MO2koL-5gE

Mitchel