Nice Bronze Button,Need Help Iding

[T Hunter]

I found this button today at a known late 1700s Shipwreck site on the beach was wondering if this might be from the wreck ? I also cant make out the letters on the front of the button.Would love to know if it is 1700s and maybe what the crown and leaves mean. Thank you for your time .

 

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[CC Hunter]

The button is by no mean plastic or I wouldn't of put it on the site.It is as round as a penny and is definitely copper or bronze !

No doubt a button is metal, when found with a metal detector.

There appears to be separation though along the rim (similar to what happens with chrome plating over plastic), as well as a couple places lifting on the back.The shank looks to be solid brass though. The reason I mentioned metal plated plastic, is that years ago when I was into searching sites for jewelry and mid-20th century silver coins, we actually used to find plastic jewelry and plastic buttons, that were covered in a heavy metal plating. These would in fact give a good signal on the metal detector.

The odd thing about the design detail on your button, is that it is not characteristic of what is normally seen in 18th or 19th century cast buttons. The detail almost looks like it was die-stamped from the back (as we see in two-piece buttons, or hollow shell type). Additionally, the shank is well formed as made from wire stock, yet there is no brazed or soldered attachment as would be most common for the period. If the shank was integrally cast, then we would see less uniformity along with a drilled thread hole.

If possible, please provide a photo of the rim or edge of the button, ideally where there appears to be the small rough portion protruding.

CC Hunter

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Are there words on the backside? http://treasurebeachesreport.blogspot.com/

View attachment 599715

Did you clean this button or was it found in this condition?

 

[CC Hunter]

A couple further observations:

1. On the face of the button, there is a darker black tint in the recesses of the design, similar to what is seen in the false patina on contemporary fashion buttons, that carry antique style designs (RE: blazer buttons with European style crests, military motifs, anchors, etc.)

2. There is a glossy sheen to the face, which can only be attributed to one of these three factors that come to mind; A.) The button was photographed wet with water on the surface. B.) The button was coated with something after being found. or C.) The button originally was made with a coat of clear lacquer sealer over an "antiqued" patina finish.

CC Hunter

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

What is this?

 

[CC Hunter]

Big Cypress Hunter,

The point you are referencing, is precisely the same question in my mind as to why would solid brass be showing possible signs of separation? From personal experience in digging an occasional 300 year old brass item from salt water beach areas, I've not seen any examples where the surface metal appears to be coming loose in layer fashion.

From the clues I'm seeing, the trail is leading more in this direction:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=Zg...onepage&q=metal plated plastic button&f=false

As the patent design above details, plastic filled buttons with a thin brass shell, might even contain a lead filler weight, to give the feel of solid metal.

Here a few examples of metal plated plastic buttons. Note the brass ones with blackened backgrounds (false antique patina).

CC Hunter

 

[Iron Patch]

The possibility exists that it a modern button. In the first pic (about 2 oclock) it almost looks like plating is coming off.

I would never be able to match CC for informative posts, but it strikes me as modern just the same way a bad modern fake Spanish 8 reales jumps out at you.

 

[CC Hunter]

I would never be able to match CC for informative posts, but it strikes me as modern just the same way a bad modern fake Spanish 8 reales jumps out at you.

Many a time, while walking down a dark alley late at night........................... there has often been the haunting fear of a "bad modern fake Spanish 8 reales" jumping out at me!

 

[Iron Patch]

I would never be able to match CC for informative posts, but it strikes me as modern just the same way a bad modern fake Spanish 8 reales jumps out at you.

Many a time, while walking down a dark alley late at night........................... there has often been the haunting fear of a "bad modern fake Spanish 8 reales" jumping out at me!

Sounds like you need to hire a bigcypresshunter for protection.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I would never be able to match CC for informative posts, but it strikes me as modern just the same way a bad modern fake Spanish 8 reales jumps out at you.

Many a time, while walking down a dark alley late at night........................... there has often been the haunting fear of a "bad modern fake Spanish 8 reales" jumping out at me!

Sounds like you need to hire a bigcypresshunter for protection.

Whats the pay? I need a job.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Big Cypress Hunter,

The point you are referencing, is precisely the same question in my mind as to why would solid brass be showing possible signs of separation? From personal experience in digging an occasional 300 year old brass item from salt water beach areas, I've not seen any examples where the surface metal appears to be coming loose in layer fashion.

Yes I agree with you it looks like plating coming off. There appear to be a couple spots like that CC. I mentioned it in reply #17 but now I rephrased it to a question and Im awaiting T Hunters response.. Im also waiting for a response to the possible manufacturers mark on the backside.


Here is a beach found modern blazer button example I found at a shipwreck site where the laquer coating keeps it shiny, as you mentioned. Normally brass will turn green unless tossed in the surfline. Im also posting your patent CC.

 

[T Hunter]

I really thought I had a good one here because of the location it was found.Yes the picture was taken with the button wet.I looked at the button under a high powered scope last night and it does look like it is plated on the back and some of the plating is lifting from the button.The front and sides seem to look solid and hard all one piece ?? Thanks for all your expertise on this one even though I guess it's not old .Oh and where the plating seems to be lifting it feels and looks like pewter

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I really thought I had a good one here because of the location it was found.Yes the picture was taken with the button wet.I looked at the button under a high powered scope last night and it does look like it is plated on the back and some of the plating is lifting from the button.The front and sides seem to look solid and hard all one piece ?? Thanks for all your expertise on this one even though I guess it's not old .Oh and where the plating seems to be lifting it feels and looks like pewter

Its probably pot metal. It looks a lot like pewter. Just a step up from plastic lol. I know the feeling. I found the button pictured above at a shipwreck site along with fired old musket balls. It made my heart skip a beat for a sec until I realized what it was.

Its a one piece modern cast pot metal button plated with something shiny. Im still curious, are those words on the backside?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Its probably a fantasy crown with fantasy monogram. I worked hard untangling those letters. How did you like my PAINT job? Now that we know its modern, I think the entangled letters are pure fantasy. It probably spells nothing just like the fantasy markings on some pot metal "ancient" tourist coins..

I would still like to know about the backside markings.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

If we could read the mark we could wrap this thing up. Whats it look like with your high powered scope? I know its a lot to read but I have asked this question about 5x now.

The reason I keep asking about the backside possible manufacturers mark is this quote from the treasurebeachesreport:

"I can't make out the words, but almost. Maybe if I work on it a little more I'll be able to figure out at least part of what it says." "Please email me if you can provide information on this button." quote http://treasurebeachesreport.blogspot.com/

Im sure you have a life outside of this thread lol so I will post the pic again in case you missed it back in reply #21.. Although its not really needed for the green check because there is absolutely no doubt its modern, these letters can supply the positive ID that you may be seeking. Its possible to be a modern career uniform button from a local hotel.


View attachment 599836

 

[T Hunter]

I have looked and looked at the back.At the end of one of the lines I think? I see an A or M but that is all I can make out.I'm going to try to clean those back lines today and maybe I can get more letters.Thanks a lot for spending time on this I really appreciate it.Good Hunting Mark