Newbie'ish looking for California beach detector advice. Sand Shark + AT pro vs cz21

[expl0rer]

I've spent the last week reading TONS of posts and have some questions.

I want a detector for California beaches. Probably only in wet sand and shallow water. I wouldn't be apposed to something that is fully submersible because I could see myself getting into underwater detecting.

My research has led me to the Sand Shark. Im not afraid to dig everything and it seems to do well for the money. I am willing to spend more but probably not interested in spend 2500 on a 3030. I ideally want to have something for hill and dry sand plus high mineralized sand. I know this will require two machines.

I'm thinking a Sand Shark + At Pro for about $1200 bucks. Or does anybody think I should just go for the CZ-21 for an all around?

I'm also open to any other options but ideally 80% of what I will be doing is salt water beach hunting. I also have a though I assume California is really competitive. Is it better to have a really good detector to find what others miss or with the tides is new stuff always coming in. (newbie questions I know haha)

Thanks!

 

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[adamBomb]

I can see this is the over anxious rookie statement haha.

Also I wouldn't go with the ATP pro for beach hunting. My plans was Sand Shark plus an ATP pro for in-land and cost wise I would be at like 1200 for two machines.

With regards to the excal 2 I've read a lot about corroding issues that worry me and long wait times on work from Minelab. Is the discrimination that good? I know this is impossible to quantify with too many variables but would you say with the sand shark you're going to dig 1000 trash targets vs 1 decent find? And with an Excal you could cut that down to 10 to 1?
I'm trying to get a sense of how much junk you'll really dig. I'm probably willing to spend the money for an excel but I also thing the extra depth with the sand shark will be nice in the overly hunted CA beaches.

Thank you for your thoughts!

The discrimination is worth it for your first machine. Do not get a PI as your first machine. They are made for certain conditions and certain types of hunting. The Excal or CZ21 will work for pretty much anything. Is the discrimination worth it? Put it this way you won't be digging pieces of wires, fish hooks, bobby pins, or little pieces of metal you barely see (like BBs) with the Excal or CZ but you will with the PI. Take care of the machine and it will work for many years. The CZ is definitely the tougher of the two as its built like a tank. The excal is nice because you can mod it but this isn't something you need to worry about until you have a lot of time on the machine.

where did you but the CZ 21 for "well under $1,000?" you must have bought it used? curious.

You can find used CZ21s or Excals for $650-$1000 in great condition. Right now is probably a great time to get a better deal on one since its the end of the summer season. Late spring/summer they tend to be a little more due to demand. I got my Excal used for $800 locally. Looked brand new.

 

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[cudamark]

With the Excalibur, you won't dig bobby pins or other small iron targets. You will dig some bottle caps and all pull tabs if you want to find gold. In the tests I've done here in SoCal, my blue 1000 with a 15" NEL Attack coil goes deeper than a Sand Shark 10.5 and a White's Dual Field with a 12". I've done side by side comparisons on the same wild target (as in, not planted) at the beach. I would find a target that was weak, but, still one I would scoop. I then had my buddies run their detector over that same target. They either couldn't hear it, or, it wasn't a good enough signal to make them want to dig it. Tried it with dozens of targets, so, not just a single one-time fluke. I use the Excal on wet and dry sand too, but, I hip mount mine, so, the weight isn't an issue with me. Get a straight shaft, either hip mount, or, relocate the control pod behind your elbow to help balance it out. Use a sling if it's too heavy for you. Weight shouldn't be a problem you can't overcome. I say it's not a good land machine because I like more info before I cut a plug. Mainly, I like a depth meter for that. I also like an accurate target I.D. meter to eliminate the obvious trash in an urban park. Sound only doesn't do that to my satisfaction.

 

[SocalJim]

Thanks for the detailed response! I hear you for sure on the hairpins (my girlfriend leaves them EVERYWHERE in my apartment and I already hate them). Would you say the BBS technology is accurate enough that you can pass stuff like that for sure? I'm the kind of guy that I would just have to know what's down there but after 5,000 pins I might pass haha! Are the Minelab Excal or Sovereign a good machine for inland California or just for salt water?

With the warranty considerations i'm leaning towards going sandshark and an atp pro for non ocean detecting. Maybe after 5,000 boby pins I buy something more expensive and maybe save up for a 3030.

I've never had either machine null out on anything but iron as far as I know of course how much do you have to dig up before your convinced? For me maybe a dozen targets with each machine. It does get fooled by some bottle caps but even those you can guess from the tone beforehand. The nice thing is if you have a good target next to iron it will still give you a signal it will sound funky and different though so you dig everything that makes noise. Sometimes you dig half a foot and then it will null but it still saves the time digging the rest of the way. Here on San Diego beaches you rarely see PI machines and I see more Whites than the Sand Shark. I'd say the most popular are the Minelabs in the wet sand or water. You could call the local Ringfinders or a detecting club in your area for a local opinion. Or check your beach during low tide and see what the locals are using.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Expl0rer, as a fellow Californian (albeit far north of you), lemme take a crack at your questions. You have a lot of good answers so far, so lemme piggyback off a few of them:

.... I've had a CZ70 which loved iron and a sand shark which of course missed nothing. You say you'll dig everything but when your in the wet sand and dig seven or eight hairpins in a row or a few bottle caps ten inches deep you'll be wishing your machine would have the ability to let you know before hand. The Minelab BBS technology just saves you so much time passing up the trash you have much better odds of finding the good stuff. ....

The CZ series has discrimination (to ... in theory .... pass nails). But in actual practice CZ users will admit that if nails are deep (esp. if bent and have a rusty clump on them), then you will get lots of them trying to bleed through. Yes there are "tricks" you can use to learn some of them. Like chasing only 2-way signals, versus 1-way signals. But nagging doubts will have you checking a lot, "just to be sure" (because deeeep coins can do a 1-way signal also). Another factor of the CZ's that some people don't like, is they're a silent search machine (no background threshold, which a lot of people prefer to have).

But otherwise, in all other ways, they are great detectors. Very simple to use. Good on wet salt of CA coast. Deeeep seeking, etc... I know guys here who do good with CZ's on our wet salt.

The AT Pro is a huge mistake for the beach as it sucks anywhere near wet sand.....

This ^ ^ This sentiment comes up over and over again , for this question. So at a certain point you have to go with the consensus that those-who-have tried the ATpro on wet mineral salt all point to.

I got tired REAL quick using a PI machine years ago...

For this reason you see that multiple people here are recommending NOT getting a beach pulse machine. Like the sandshark and various other maker's beach pulses. Yes: You will have no way to discern iron vs. conductive. Other than 2nd -guessing signals.

But this needs a little fairer treatment: There are SCORES of pulse users on So. CA beaches that DO QUITE WELL. In fact, some of the resident long-time experts as a matter of fact. And some of them have actually gotten the ability to pass a lot of nails. Although I'd question if the sound tricks aren't going to make them miss a gold stick pin, or a funky wadded up necklace, or other such object that might mimic the sounds of nails. And also: while there are So. CA experts who do quite well with them, and aren't *too* bothered by iron, yet truth-be-told, I bet there's some erosion conditions that would cause them to wish they had a standard machine.

Example: I was hunting underneath the manhattan wharf/pier years ago, following stormy rain and erosion. The street culvert water outflow had carved a channel which pulled out a path of sand right under the pier there. I got down in there with my discriminating machine and was pulling coins, even back to silver coins, wheaties, buffalos, etc..... And all-the-while, I could see that the nails were so thick, that they resembled toothpicks lying all over. Then a guy swinging a pulse came walking down the beach, and we compared finds. I pointed to where all my old coins were coming from and invited him to join me. He lasted about 3 minutes.

But on the "up" side, pulses can handle very nasty black sand, and don't miss dainty fine chains, earing studs , etc...

But for me, most all my wet sand beach hunting is strictly looking for when there's storm erosion. And in such conditions, depth is no longer the name of the game often-times. In those conditions SPEED becomes the name of the game (how many targets can you harvest before the next high tide chases you out). And if the ratio were even as good as 1 nail per 5 conductors, to me, that's still time-lost when I could have been bagging more conductors. But that's just me. As I say, others down there do good with them. Up here @ Monterey bay a few have tried them, but they are usually forced to stick to the cleaner "bay watch" style beaches. And have to shun the beaches that allow bonfires (which introduce nails), or had history of burned down wharves (which introduce nails), or beaches with industrial type history, etc... So ca has a lot more "touristy clean" beaches, so admittedly the pulse can come in handy on some beaches there. Also some beaches down there are notorious, after erosion, for becoming almost gunpowder grey in color (extreme minerals). Like Dockweiler. And if so, your discriminating machine will be foiled with only a few inches depth and difficult to use. So in conditions of sand mineral/color like that, I've sometimes wished I had a pulse

....The excal isn't a good land machine because its heavy. There are much better options for land. ....

It's also got an annoying long "tail" on the signals. That's fine on the beach where the targets are spread out , but can be annoying when trying to isolate targets in junky turf, urban old-town demolition, etc.....

As an aside on the Excalibur: If that's the route you choose to go, be prepared for a long learning curve (depending on what machines before this you are accustomed to). The best way to get used to it on the beach is start out in all metal (aka pinpoint) mode. Check each signal (x marks the spot @ 90* angles) in disc. mode. If it nulls out , it was iron. By doing this for a few hunts, then pretty soon you will evolve to where you just keep it in disc. But otherwise, if you start off in disc., the sounds can be very hard to get used to.

 

[Sandman]

Any PI is deeper of course but no discrimination. Excal, CZ-21 or Beach Hunter id which are more than one freq are your best bets.

 

[cudamark]

For this reason you see that multiple people here are recommending NOT getting a beach pulse machine. Like the sandshark and various other maker's beach pulses. Yes: You will have no way to discern iron vs. conductive. Other than 2nd -guessing signals.

But this needs a little fairer treatment: There are SCORES of pulse users on So. CA beaches that DO QUITE WELL. In fact, some of the resident long-time experts as a matter of fact. And some of them have actually gotten the ability to pass a lot of nails. Although I'd question if the sound tricks aren't going to make them miss a gold stick pin, or a funky wadded up necklace, or other such object that might mimic the sounds of nails. And also: while there are So. CA experts who do quite well with them, and aren't *too* bothered by iron, yet truth-be-told, I bet there's some erosion conditions that would cause them to wish they had a standard machine.

Example: I was hunting underneath the manhattan wharf/pier years ago, following stormy rain and erosion. The street culvert water outflow had carved a channel which pulled out a path of sand right under the pier there. I got down in there with my discriminating machine and was pulling coins, even back to silver coins, wheaties, buffalos, etc..... And all-the-while, I could see that the nails were so thick, that they resembled toothpicks lying all over. Then a guy swinging a pulse came walking down the beach, and we compared finds. I pointed to where all my old coins were coming from and invited him to join me. He lasted about 3 minutes.

But on the "up" side, pulses can handle very nasty black sand, and don't miss dainty fine chains, earing studs , etc...

But for me, most all my wet sand beach hunting is strictly looking for when there's storm erosion. And in such conditions, depth is no longer the name of the game often-times. In those conditions SPEED becomes the name of the game (how many targets can you harvest before the next high tide chases you out). And if the ratio were even as good as 1 nail per 5 conductors, to me, that's still time-lost when I could have been bagging more conductors. But that's just me. As I say, others down there do good with them. Up here @ Monterey bay a few have tried them, but they are usually forced to stick to the cleaner "bay watch" style beaches. And have to shun the beaches that allow bonfires (which introduce nails), or had history of burned down wharves (which introduce nails), or beaches with industrial type history, etc... So ca has a lot more "touristy clean" beaches, so admittedly the pulse can come in handy on some beaches there. Also some beaches down there are notorious, after erosion, for becoming almost gunpowder grey in color (extreme minerals). Like Dockweiler. And if so, your discriminating machine will be foiled with only a few inches depth and difficult to use. So in conditions of sand mineral/color like that, I've sometimes wished I had a pulse



It's also got an annoying long "tail" on the signals. That's fine on the beach where the targets are spread out , but can be annoying when trying to isolate targets in junky turf, urban old-town demolition, etc.....

As an aside on the Excalibur: If that's the route you choose to go, be prepared for a long learning curve (depending on what machines before this you are accustomed to). The best way to get used to it on the beach is start out in all metal (aka pinpoint) mode. Check each signal (x marks the spot @ 90* angles) in disc. mode. If it nulls out , it was iron. By doing this for a few hunts, then pretty soon you will evolve to where you just keep it in disc. But otherwise, if you start off in disc., the sounds can be very hard to get used to.[/QUOTE]


Sure, some do very well with PI machines......and they dig all kinds of crap to prove it. If you're willing to do that, you'll have success too, but, I'll dig more "good" targets with my Excalibur (or E-trac,CTX, CZ21,etc) over a given period of time than a PI user will. Less bad targets dug = more good targets dug all things being equal. Now are there certain conditions where a PI might be a better choice? Of course, and if you want to have one for that rare occasion, by all means keep one in your closet for that day. For regular use, a multi-frequency discriminating machine is the way to go IMO. Some of our SoCal beaches might be geared for tourists, but, that doesn't mean there isn't a bunch of iron in the sand. Lots of our beaches have fire rings (and when they don't, it doesn't stop people from making their own!) and super junky areas. We've also had many piers destroyed by storms over the years, scattering iron debris all over the place. As for learning to use the Excalibur, it's very easy to get used to.....as long as you hunt in pin point. (which is where you should hunt 99% of the time) Run it as hot as you can without falsing. When you get a target, flip the switch to Disc. If the sound is still there, dig it. If it disappears, dig deeper until you find it again. If it nulls, move on to the next target. I can't remember the last time I had to change any settings on mine. I run it flat out as hot as possible in all but the most nasty black sand. Even there, I can usually just slow the sweep speed and keep the coil at an even height to eliminate the false signals without having to change settings. If you hunt in Disc, you'll have to get used to the constant change in threshold tone, which I find annoying, and you'll give up at least 2 inches in depth over the pin point mode. If you get a big coil for it, such as the Coiltek WOT or NEL Attack, you'll get at least as much depth as most of the PI machine. The exceptions I know of are the GPX series, GPZ 7000, and ATX. Those will go deeper at the cost of your sanity and endurance digging those 3 foot deep holes!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... If you get a big coil for it, such as the Coiltek WOT or NEL Attack, you'll get at least as much depth as most of the PI machine. ...

Good analysis Mark: In the old days (the early days of beach pulse machines), it was true that they spanked the standard machine guys for depth. But that gap has now been closed with some machines. Like I know a guy here with a Sovereign / WOT combo, who can get up to 14" on coins with ease. That's about as much as most beach pulse machines (barring some extreme nugget hunting machines, as you say).

So since that depth difference has almost been shattered, then it only leaves 2 advantages still un-tackled:

a) the pulse ability to cut effortlessly through the nastiest black minerals, and

b) the pulse ability to get dainty fine earing studs and chains.

 

[expl0rer]

I want to really thank everybody for all the time and thoughts! I purchased a CTX 3030 today from Keith at Fort Bedford and I really can't thank him enough for the quality of service and the deal he put together. I originally wasn't thinking this detector was in the picture but Keith had a very special deal and if you're in the market for a CTX 3030 I strongly suggest you call him fast!

I look forward to sharing finds and stories with you guys! Thanks for helping this newbie out!

Jon

 

[Terry Soloman]

Good luck with the new machine Jon, and Big Gold Baby!