new show on the dutchman

sdcfia said:
This is getting painful to watch - what are you trying to prove with your totally fallacious database prop? I'll quote Glover himself on the issue, The Lost Dutchman of Jacob Waltz, Part 1: The Golden Dream, page 275. "... the entire premise that the ore could be tested against ore from every known mine in Arizona is ludicrous. No one, nor any institution, has such a collection of gold ores. It does not exist."

Glover tested the jewelry ore against the Vulture Mine and six other ore samples known or suspected to have come from the Superstition Mountains and Goldfield mines. More: "No ore samples survive from many of the documented historic mines, some of whose locations we may not even know today. Anyone who has studied mining history knows that it is often poorly or incompletely documented. Consider the number of early mines worked for only a brief period, exhausted of ore and then closed over a century ago; the number of mines worked without declaration; the early mines worked which were incompletely documented; and the number of mines for which the documentation has been lost or destroyed. Given this history, it is silly to think that a collection exists anywhere with 'samples of gold ore from every known Arizona mine' ". Page 282.

I believe I pointed out the same information in Post#927. If you can't accept my observations, why not Glovers? In effect, the jewelry ore could have come from anywhere in Arizona. Or CA, NM, or MX too, for that matter. Move on.
Click to expand...

I dont diagree with you on any point you made.
I just wanted to let you guys know that he may be lead down a rabbit hole.
When I first started studying up . Ran across a couple websites that sold prospecting equipment. They were making the same data base claim.
They even went as far to say dutchman data may already be in the system. So if you found the gold. It would be easy to identify it.
One of the guys on here told me the samething you are poiting out.. so I moved on. I cant promise anything but Ill try to find a link.
Anyway my point is he may have been sold a load of crap.
 

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SDCFIA,

You know very well that I changed that statement to:

Since we are into semantics now, I should have used the phrase "every tested known mine".
Click to expand...

...are you saying that if you had a mine that you would not have your ore XRF or EDS Tested to see every possible ingredient in it? Fire Assays are okay for gold or silver, but to look for everything of value XRF, EDS, or the like testing should be done. I can't imagine ANYBODY owning a mine in the last twenty years and not spending a hundred or so dollars to have an XRF Analysis done on it.

I never said that an ore sample could be tested 100% to ANY source. It can be matched to a geologic event to include or exclude it as a possible source. Having a problem understanding that?

I never said that Glover's Book had a database of samples. I never said they were available at the time of the ore testing. Please read what I write. Now, I trust that you are quoting the book exactly. That book was published in 1998. I don't know exactly when the testing was done. At the time of that testing, the internet was just getting into its own. Databases were mostly compiled through face to face meetings and snail mail. In the seventeen years since then, countless databases and resources have been made available. I said that I was given the link A FEW YEARS AGO, and it was peripheral to something else I was researching (so I didn't place an awful lot of importance to it at the time).

If all you are trying to do is be contrary, then you are doing a smash-up job! If you are trying to show me as being a liar or BS'er, it will never happen, because I don't talk out of the back of my neck.

Mike
 

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i looked into the database thing,and found this, i think if the MRDS file # database
could be located that file would prob have more detailed info, i found the link that took me too
mindat.org @ Arizona Department of Mines and Mineral Resources, and got this
1st one off the search pg @ mindat search order alpha, forgot to mention those
are links after the bell title, takes you to more info and maps

A.B. Bell property, Blue Wash, Cave Creek District, Verde Mts, Maricopa Co., Arizona, USA

‡Ref.: Wilson, E.D., et al (1934), AZ Bur. of Mines Bull. 137: 165; MRDS file #10027062.

A Au mine located at the head of Blue Wash, 12 miles NE of Cave Creek.

Mineralization is gold associated with fine-grained grayish quartz in silicified breccia zones.

Operated a few months only after reopening during 1933. Produced about $2,000 in gold (period values).



A.B. Bell property, Blue Wash, Cave Creek District, Verde Mts, Maricopa Co., Arizona, USA

search mindat
Mineral Location Search

Arizona Department of Mines and Mineral Resources
AZGS | Mineral Resources
 

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gollum said:
<cut>
If all you are trying to do is be contrary, then you are doing a smash-up job! If you are trying to show me as being a liar or BS'er, it will never happen, because I don't talk out of the back of my neck.

Mike
Click to expand...


Ha ha. Well, that was less than gracious back-peddling. Let's move on. Bottom line: no one can verify where the jewelry ore originated. Could be the Gila/Salt region, or somewhere else in Arizona, or somewhere else in the West. Anything more to add or are you still intent on whacking the messenger?
 

Here is a question for group consideration: If the supposed location of the LDM was not near a major city full of retirees with warm weather most of the year, do you think it would still get the attention it does? For example, I can think of several treasure tales involving lost mines or caches of similar value, but they are not located near major cities, and are not at lower elevations, or even near roads, and have very short seasons each year where searching is even possible. And I never see anyone posting about them at all. They get zero attention. My guess would simply be that is because the search areas involved are very difficult to get to, require people to hike or use pack animals to get themselves into those search areas, and are at much higher elevations than the Superstition Mountains.

If the LDM tales told us it was located in the high Rockies above 11,000 feet in wilderness areas, far away from any roads or major cities, and you could only search for it a couple of months out of each year, would we even be talking about it today? Would it have its own show? I seriously doubt it.
 

UncleMatt said:
Here is a question for group consideration: If the supposed location of the LDM was not near a major city full of retirees with warm weather most of the year, do you think it would still get the attention it does? For example, I can think of several treasure tales involving lost mines or caches of similar value, but they are not located near major cities, and are not at lower elevations, or even near roads, and have very short seasons each year where searching is even possible. And I never see anyone posting about them at all. They get zero attention. My guess would simply be that is because the search areas involved are very difficult to get to, require people to hike or use pack animals to get themselves into those search areas, and are at much higher elevations than the Superstition Mountains.

If the LDM tales told us it was located in the high Rockies above 11,000 feet in wilderness areas, far away from any roads or major cities, and you could only search for it a couple of months out of each year, would we even be talking about it today? Would it have its own show? I seriously doubt it.
Click to expand...

UM,

I think that is a very interesting question to discuss. Why does the LDM get so much attention? Why does the legend persist so stubbornly?

One aspect of course is that there really is something to it, otherwise the myth wouldn't have survived for so long.

The other big question I have been thinking about, and want to ask: would these stories have lasted very long without the presence of the Stone Maps?

I ask this because in just about every news item or media coverage of the LDM story, the Stone Maps invariably shows up in discussion sooner or later. They seems to serve as a great visual reference, a concrete representation of the stories, and at the very least serve as props that give the LDM story some teeth.
 

I know of other treasure legends that have similar kinds of tales supporting them as the LDM, but they are not easy accessed, and for only short periods during each year. But no stone maps involved. So you may have a point there! Problem is, no one has proved the stone maps are in any way connected to the LDM! Just a lot of wishful thinking!
 

It appears to me when people retire and have a lot of time on their hands to fill, they begin looking for things to entertain themselves. And they look for that kind of thing close to home where it is easy to access. Just human nature of course, and we all either do it, or will do it in the future.
 

UncleMatt said:
Here is a question for group consideration: If the supposed location of the LDM was not near a major city full of retirees with warm weather most of the year, do you think it would still get the attention it does? For example, I can think of several treasure tales involving lost mines or caches of similar value, but they are not located near major cities, and are not at lower elevations, or even near roads, and have very short seasons each year where searching is even possible. And I never see anyone posting about them at all. They get zero attention. My guess would simply be that is because the search areas involved are very difficult to get to, require people to hike or use pack animals to get themselves into those search areas, and are at much higher elevations than the Superstition Mountains.

If the LDM tales told us it was located in the high Rockies above 11,000 feet in wilderness areas, far away from any roads or major cities, and you could only search for it a couple of months out of each year, would we even be talking about it today? Would it have its own show? I seriously doubt it.
Click to expand...

I dont think it has anything to do with location or with the stones. Its probably books and now the tv show. There are plenty of people on this forum actively trying to find other things. I actually think very few actually put any effort into finding the ldm. This member said it best...

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/g...w-legends-dutchman-mine-show.html#post4420502
 

UncleMatt said:
I know of other treasure legends that have similar kinds of tales supporting them as the LDM, but they are not easy accessed, and for only short periods during each year. But no stone maps involved. So you may have a point there! Problem is, no one has proved the stone maps are in any way connected to the LDM! Just a lot of wishful thinking!
Click to expand...

Regardless of whether the Stone Maps are real or not, or are connected to the LDM in any way, they are still in some ways, a physical representation of the stories. Props, if you will.

I wonder if those Stone Maps are a major drawing attraction because they represent a challenge, and potentially a "puzzle to be solved," and in that way draw a lot of people, out of curiosity, to at least check them out. And this then serves as a jump off point for them to become immersed in the treasure stories. Is this a viable thought?

Or do you or anyone else think that the LDM tales can stand on their own?
 

UncleMatt said:
Here is a question for group consideration: If the supposed location of the LDM was not near a major city full of retirees with warm weather most of the year, do you think it would still get the attention it does? For example, I can think of several treasure tales involving lost mines or caches of similar value, but they are not located near major cities, and are not at lower elevations, or even near roads, and have very short seasons each year where searching is even possible. And I never see anyone posting about them at all. They get zero attention. My guess would simply be that is because the search areas involved are very difficult to get to, require people to hike or use pack animals to get themselves into those search areas, and are at much higher elevations than the Superstition Mountains.

If the LDM tales told us it was located in the high Rockies above 11,000 feet in wilderness areas, far away from any roads or major cities, and you could only search for it a couple of months out of each year, would we even be talking about it today? Would it have its own show? I seriously doubt it.
Click to expand...

I've thought about this many times and I feel the same way as you with the exception that I believe there really are things of value out in those mountains - be it monetary "treasures" of some kind, finds of archaeological importance or native American "treasures."

It's hard to deny the fact that the Superstition Wilderness Area is a location that literally has civilization encroaching right up to it's base in some spots yet allows no motorized vehicles to enter beyond trailheads. I believe there are a limited number of places in the United States that portrays the dichotomy of the Superstitions - I've thought about that when camping out in the Peter's Mesa area at night where you can feel completely alone with God's universe surrounding you - looking up at the expanse of the solar system, while at the same time in the distance can be seen the lights of the city seemingly within arms reach. There's something "primitive" that pulls at me when I'm out there - to be able to test my body and mind knowing that a snake bite, a fall, running out of water, etc... could put myself at a REAL risk of not surviving, and yet at the same knowing that I'm physically often only a handful of miles away from soaking in a hot bath and watching TV is just something magical.

I do indeed believe that a large part of the lure of the search for the DLM is due to the area's proximity to civilization.
 

chlsbrns said:
I dont think it has anything to do with location or with the stones. Its probably books and now the tv show. There are plenty of people on this forum actively trying to find other things. I actually think very few actually put any effort into finding the ldm. This member said it best...

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/g...w-legends-dutchman-mine-show.html#post4420502
Click to expand...

Go Go Luckey Entertainment
Julie Auerbach
310 314 3900
[email protected]

Yes, that was a depressing but honest post. Lots of suspicion about the producers intentions it seems. Here is the person to speak with if you have any question about who did what. Call and ask the question! Then we can compare notes.
 

deducer said:
Regardless of whether the Stone Maps are real or not, or are connected to the LDM in any way, they are still in some ways, a physical representation of the stories. Props, if you will.

I wonder if those Stone Maps are a major drawing attraction because they represent a challenge, and potentially a "puzzle to be solved," and in that way draw a lot of people, out of curiosity, to at least check them out. And this then serves as a jump off point for them to become immersed in the treasure stories. Is this a viable thought?

Or do you or anyone else think that the LDM tales can stand on their own?
Click to expand...

Well I think the past has proved the LDM did stand on its own, There was quite a few searches for the mine way before the induction of the Peralta Stones. The Stones brought the Legends into the main stream, And with that came the armchair puzzle solvers from the comfort of there home. So yeah I believe there's dutch hunters out there who invest time and money into the search who don't believe in the Stones at all to this day, like Feldman.

Wrmickel1
 

deducer said:
Regardless of whether the Stone Maps are real or not, or are connected to the LDM in any way, they are still in some ways, a physical representation of the stories. Props, if you will.

I wonder if those Stone Maps are a major drawing attraction because they represent a challenge, and potentially a "puzzle to be solved," and in that way draw a lot of people, out of curiosity, to at least check them out. And this then serves as a jump off point for them to become immersed in the treasure stories. Is this a viable thought?

Or do you or anyone else think that the LDM tales can stand on their own?
Click to expand...

Very smart for many reasons.
 

UncleMatt said:
Here is a question for group consideration: If the supposed location of the LDM was not near a major city full of retirees with warm weather most of the year, do you think it would still get the attention it does? For example, I can think of several treasure tales involving lost mines or caches of similar value, but they are not located near major cities, and are not at lower elevations, or even near roads, and have very short seasons each year where searching is even possible. And I never see anyone posting about them at all. They get zero attention. My guess would simply be that is because the search areas involved are very difficult to get to, require people to hike or use pack animals to get themselves into those search areas, and are at much higher elevations than the Superstition Mountains.

If the LDM tales told us it was located in the high Rockies above 11,000 feet in wilderness areas, far away from any roads or major cities, and you could only search for it a couple of months out of each year, would we even be talking about it today? Would it have its own show? I seriously doubt it.
Click to expand...

UncleMatt,
You can take that argument even further. Very smart.
 

Hal Croves said:
UncleMatt,
You can take that argument even further. Very smart.
Click to expand...

I don't agree so much with that, remember the search started back
when the population was less then 5000 and 30/40 players in the game. Not to mention Indian attacks and bushwhackers and was still just a glint of even becoming a state. So I don't think the theory of it convenience really come a long till the invention of the swamp cooler then the population took off.

Wrmickel1
 

wrmickel1 said:
Well I think the past has proved the LDM did stand on its own, There was quite a few searches for the mine way before the induction of the Peralta Stones. The Stones brought the Legends into the main stream, And with that came the armchair puzzle solvers from the comfort of there home. So yeah I believe there's dutch hunters out there who invest time and money into the search who don't believe in the Stones at all to this day, like Feldman.
Wrmickel1
Click to expand...

Good point- it did stand on its own, regionally.

But nationally- and even internationally- could these stories have done so, without the Stone Maps?
 

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