Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays
Ivan... This might help.
Ivan... This might help.
New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra dAys
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ivan salis
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Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays
in two letters --- in a letter written from st augustine to cuba sept 20th of 1715 --admerial salmon (in charge of salvaging the treasure fleet) says wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found was found washed ashore * 15 leagues to the leeward * of this port (st augustine)---- (39 miles at 2.6 per mile) or about where modern day nassau sound is --- on oct 24th, of 1715 -- english govenor of virginia alaxander spotswood reported that --"a rescue vessel (barkalonga--single masted 60 foot type vessel) sent from havana to recover VIP'S and wealth off the 1715 fleet wreck sites to the south had later wrecked about 40 miles to the north of st augustine" ( was she headed for spain with some of the recovered queens dowery items onboard? who knows?) spotswood also said that a conciderible quanity of plate (silver) was cast away and ready for "recovery" if he was given the royal "nod"
(15 leagues at 2.6 miles = 39 miles and about 40 miles ) both "sides" were quite in agreement that a vessel baring 1715 era goodies went down in the nassau sound area -- humm very close matching info considering the day and that its from 2 differant sources* --(unless high level spys were invovled --- which is highly likely )
in two letters --- in a letter written from st augustine to cuba sept 20th of 1715 --admerial salmon (in charge of salvaging the treasure fleet) says wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found was found washed ashore * 15 leagues to the leeward * of this port (st augustine)---- (39 miles at 2.6 per mile) or about where modern day nassau sound is --- on oct 24th, of 1715 -- english govenor of virginia alaxander spotswood reported that --"a rescue vessel (barkalonga--single masted 60 foot type vessel) sent from havana to recover VIP'S and wealth off the 1715 fleet wreck sites to the south had later wrecked about 40 miles to the north of st augustine" ( was she headed for spain with some of the recovered queens dowery items onboard? who knows?) spotswood also said that a conciderible quanity of plate (silver) was cast away and ready for "recovery" if he was given the royal "nod"
(15 leagues at 2.6 miles = 39 miles and about 40 miles ) both "sides" were quite in agreement that a vessel baring 1715 era goodies went down in the nassau sound area -- humm very close matching info considering the day and that its from 2 differant sources* --(unless high level spys were invovled --- which is highly likely )- Thread starter
- #23
Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays
Jeff K:
I'm very familiar with the Higgs' article (FHQ 1942) on Ais and the McClarty site.
Higgs' article is absolute terrible, for a number of reasons, but I won't bore you.
Your map showing Ais at Vero Beach is the "orthodox" location, inherited from Woodbury Lowery (1909) to Higgs (1942) to Rouse (1951) to the present, with the exception of Eugene Lyon (1976 and n.d.) and Homer Cato (unpublished).
Lyon and Cato place Summer Ais in Roseland/Sebastian, and Winter Ais just north of the Sebatian Inlet. They place the Inlet of the Ais either at New's Cut or just south of it, in the area below where Jungle Trail Road breaks off from modern AIA.
Our article overthrows 100 years of received wisdom re: the location of Ais and 250 years of received wisdom re: location of Ais Inlet (Rio or Barra d'Ays etc.)
I will be giving a free public lecture on this topic (and some others) at the Melbourne Library on Saturday November 8 at 3:00 PM for the South Brevard Historical Society.
Here is a picture (hopefully) of the Kroegel Mound (the real Ais town) prior to it being sold for road-fill in 1904:
Jeff K:
I'm very familiar with the Higgs' article (FHQ 1942) on Ais and the McClarty site.
Higgs' article is absolute terrible, for a number of reasons, but I won't bore you.
Your map showing Ais at Vero Beach is the "orthodox" location, inherited from Woodbury Lowery (1909) to Higgs (1942) to Rouse (1951) to the present, with the exception of Eugene Lyon (1976 and n.d.) and Homer Cato (unpublished).
Lyon and Cato place Summer Ais in Roseland/Sebastian, and Winter Ais just north of the Sebatian Inlet. They place the Inlet of the Ais either at New's Cut or just south of it, in the area below where Jungle Trail Road breaks off from modern AIA.
Our article overthrows 100 years of received wisdom re: the location of Ais and 250 years of received wisdom re: location of Ais Inlet (Rio or Barra d'Ays etc.)
I will be giving a free public lecture on this topic (and some others) at the Melbourne Library on Saturday November 8 at 3:00 PM for the South Brevard Historical Society.
Here is a picture (hopefully) of the Kroegel Mound (the real Ais town) prior to it being sold for road-fill in 1904:
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Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays
If you look closely at Romans 1768 map, he shows the juncture of the Indian and Banana Rivers at a location just south of Sebastian. It's easy to understand the confusion about locations with discrepancies like this. He also labels the inlet at Ft. Pierce as "Hillsboro" inlet.
Notice the "bleech yard" and "tortolas" as visual landmarks on the mainland.
If you look closely at Romans 1768 map, he shows the juncture of the Indian and Banana Rivers at a location just south of Sebastian. It's easy to understand the confusion about locations with discrepancies like this. He also labels the inlet at Ft. Pierce as "Hillsboro" inlet.
Notice the "bleech yard" and "tortolas" as visual landmarks on the mainland.
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Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays
Romans map had me thinking that the Capitana was just off of Conova Beach in Brevard County.
Tom
Romans map had me thinking that the Capitana was just off of Conova Beach in Brevard County.
Tom
billinstuart
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Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays
Wreck..it could be. I'm still of the opinion that the smaller, lighter ships carried little if any "ballast stones". If indeed they were heavily laden with treasure, they didn't need the ballast.
Look at Savannah. All that waterfront development was built with "ballast stones". They removed the ballast and replaced it with cargo.
We may never find the remaining ships because other than cannons, they have nothing heavy and permanent on them.
There is conflict on early maps about some inland details. Would early explorers really have taken time to sail small vessels up the Indian river to verify the actual configuration? Was Romans simply making sketches along the way, and later compiled his maps from notes? It's easy to make a few mistakes when you're 3000 miles away. While good, early maps and accounts of distances can have substantial errors.
Wreck..it could be. I'm still of the opinion that the smaller, lighter ships carried little if any "ballast stones". If indeed they were heavily laden with treasure, they didn't need the ballast.
Look at Savannah. All that waterfront development was built with "ballast stones". They removed the ballast and replaced it with cargo.
We may never find the remaining ships because other than cannons, they have nothing heavy and permanent on them.
There is conflict on early maps about some inland details. Would early explorers really have taken time to sail small vessels up the Indian river to verify the actual configuration? Was Romans simply making sketches along the way, and later compiled his maps from notes? It's easy to make a few mistakes when you're 3000 miles away. While good, early maps and accounts of distances can have substantial errors.
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Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays
Bill
You said Romans' map of 1768. All I have is the one from Burgess & Clausen, which they date at 1775 (which is also the date of his book). It shows, like you said, Merritt Island terminating in the area of the Sebastian River.
IF those are different maps (1768 vs. 1775, in Burgess & Clausen), could you send me a copy of yours ([email protected]) ?
You're certainly correct about the poor quality of early maps, even De Brahms' and Romans, especially as it pertains to the interior, non-coastal features.
Our paper locating the main town of the Ais does not rely on these maps, but out of thoroughness and full disclosure, we do mention them and assess them. Thanks again,
Alan Brech
Below is a picture of the last remnant of Barker's Bluff (aka Kroegel Homestead) as it was removed for road-fill in 1904.
Bill
You said Romans' map of 1768. All I have is the one from Burgess & Clausen, which they date at 1775 (which is also the date of his book). It shows, like you said, Merritt Island terminating in the area of the Sebastian River.
IF those are different maps (1768 vs. 1775, in Burgess & Clausen), could you send me a copy of yours ([email protected]) ?
You're certainly correct about the poor quality of early maps, even De Brahms' and Romans, especially as it pertains to the interior, non-coastal features.
Our paper locating the main town of the Ais does not rely on these maps, but out of thoroughness and full disclosure, we do mention them and assess them. Thanks again,
Alan Brech
Below is a picture of the last remnant of Barker's Bluff (aka Kroegel Homestead) as it was removed for road-fill in 1904.
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stevemc
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Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays
I always assumed they meant the shallow area off Cape Canaveral. That would be an area to avoid while undersail, and I am sure well known back then, and it goes way out. There are many known shipwrecks there, and it is close to the Turtle mound which was the center of Ais's territory. Maybe shift your looking up that way. Check on any modern chart and you will see it clearly. Only problem it is near Federal seashore, and Cape Canaveral space port, both off limits.
I always assumed they meant the shallow area off Cape Canaveral. That would be an area to avoid while undersail, and I am sure well known back then, and it goes way out. There are many known shipwrecks there, and it is close to the Turtle mound which was the center of Ais's territory. Maybe shift your looking up that way. Check on any modern chart and you will see it clearly. Only problem it is near Federal seashore, and Cape Canaveral space port, both off limits.
Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays
I'm new to this forum, so forgive me for my ignorance, but I would like to add some info.
I have had an original map in my possesion " The General Map of the Southern British Colonies" by B Romans 1776.
Ayrs Inlet is clearly the St Lucie Inlet as it is shown as the terminus of the St Lucia River. What i am unsure of is the "Hillsborogh Inlet" (not the present day one in Boca) as it is shown to be South of the Sebastian River and North of the St Lucia, so I assume it is the Ft Pierce Inlet.
It also shows "the Bleach Yard, a high hill full of white spots, remarkable landmark" in current day Jensen Beach.
Remarkably though it also show six "X"s in the water just offshore north of the "Hillsborough Inlet". I was curious as whether this could be the location of the 1715 fleet as understood back then and provided by Henry Jennings? These Xs appear different than those on the rest of the map to define shoals as some appear to be encircled.
I'm new to this forum, so forgive me for my ignorance, but I would like to add some info.
I have had an original map in my possesion " The General Map of the Southern British Colonies" by B Romans 1776.
Ayrs Inlet is clearly the St Lucie Inlet as it is shown as the terminus of the St Lucia River. What i am unsure of is the "Hillsborogh Inlet" (not the present day one in Boca) as it is shown to be South of the Sebastian River and North of the St Lucia, so I assume it is the Ft Pierce Inlet.
It also shows "the Bleach Yard, a high hill full of white spots, remarkable landmark" in current day Jensen Beach.
Remarkably though it also show six "X"s in the water just offshore north of the "Hillsborough Inlet". I was curious as whether this could be the location of the 1715 fleet as understood back then and provided by Henry Jennings? These Xs appear different than those on the rest of the map to define shoals as some appear to be encircled.
SebastianSam
Jr. Member
Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays
I believe that xxx's on maps from that period represent reefs or rocks. The area from the old Ft Pierce Inlet north to Sebastain Inlet is a continuous system of shallow reefs.
I believe that xxx's on maps from that period represent reefs or rocks. The area from the old Ft Pierce Inlet north to Sebastain Inlet is a continuous system of shallow reefs.
CaptJohn
Full Member
Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays
How far off shore are these Shallow Reefs ? 100's of yards or a mile or miles?
How far off shore are these Shallow Reefs ? 100's of yards or a mile or miles?
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Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays
most are very close into shore < a couple hundred yards
most are very close into shore < a couple hundred yards
CaptJohn
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Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays
I was down there Wabasso area a couple of week ago for my 1st time. Next time I go I would like to link up with some of you guys down there. I used a 2 box and a Maxi Plus with a 4 ft P.I. coil on my last afternoon. Next time I plan to start with those. But may need some help digging. Next time may be this winter yet.
I was down there Wabasso area a couple of week ago for my 1st time. Next time I go I would like to link up with some of you guys down there. I used a 2 box and a Maxi Plus with a 4 ft P.I. coil on my last afternoon. Next time I plan to start with those. But may need some help digging. Next time may be this winter yet.
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