Need help with the ID on a very old dug flintlock side plate

[smokeythecat]

This is under the other thread from yesterday, but I was wondering if anyone out there could help me with an ID on it. The site was occupied (generally) last quarter 17th century to first quarter 18th century.

The lock was down quite a bit. The main lock plate is the flat kind, no curve or beveling to it at all. The frizzen is squared at the top, unlike the first model Brown Bess, whose frizzen is sloped to the top center, this one is dead flat across the top, and it is thicker than a Bess frizzen. There is the trifoil decoration where the frizzen screw attaches the frizzen spring to the lock.

It is 6.5" or 166 mm long. Any ideas what it went to?

 

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[ARC]

Ya know... it almost looks like a Springfield.

 

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[smokeythecat]

Springfield had not gone in business when this pit was used. I had a 1864 Springfield once...

 

[ARC]

Correction.

:P

 

[ARC]

Sheesh file the S.O.B. at this point :P

 

[Hawks88]

Nice find Smokey. Congrats

 

[Dug]

Many have their methods, but I prefer full strength white vinegar. I would soak this side plate for about 12 hours and then gently brush it with a brass wire brush, rinse, and repeat the cycle until I got it where I wanted. Then soaked it for 24 hours in a baking soda water solution, then 24 hours in distilled water. I then heated it in the oven at 350 for a few hours then while hot rubbed it with a microcrystalline wax bar and toweled off the excess. No subsequent oxidation.


Before:

After:

 

[smokeythecat]

I got some more cleaning done on it. The metal is crystallizing and was burned and if I push it too much it's going to break. Please note the EXTRA holes at the rear of the hole for the hammer. Due to these and the age of the site I think it is a DOG LOCK, not a flintlock. Comments?

 

[dirtlooter]

I just wanted to say that it is a wonderful find, totally love it and hope that it gets ID-ed for you. more awesome history found

 

[Red James Cash]

if you use the wire wheel do it carefully.wire wheels can eat metal.especially rusted stuff.

 

[huntsman53]

View attachment 1675711View attachment 1675712 I got some more cleaning done on it. The metal is crystallizing and was burned and if I push it too much it's going to break. Please note the EXTRA holes at the rear of the hole for the hammer. Due to these and the age of the site I think it is a DOG LOCK, not a flintlock. Comments?

I think you narrowed it down, so now we might be able to hit a home run on identification.

How about this Circa 1806 Napoleonic War Brown Bess Musket with Doglock Safety edited to make the pic brighter??!! Paul's Antique Arms & Armour--A VERY GOOD UNTOUCHED NAPOLEANIC WAR PERIOD THIRD MODEL/INDIA PATTERN BROWN BESS MUSKET w/ DOGLOCK SAFETY, ca. 1806

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Very possible on a doglock - also would explain the flat topped frizzen.

NOT a Bess as every version of the land pattern has a bridled frizzen (a "truss" outside the frizzen extending from the pan that supports the screw holding the frizzen to the lock) - this one lacks that feature.

Early (1750ish Germanic - no bridle) Look where the frizzen hinges.


Later (1770ish English - with bridle)

 

[ARC]

Swore I saw that exact plate earlier today whilst poking around on this.

 

[smokeythecat]

I wish I knew guns a little better!

 

[ARC]

Arrrg... Im gonnna be dreaming of lock plates in my sleep.

Wait...

Am I awake now ?

Sheesh I have looked over hundreds today seems.

Smoke...

I gave it a valiant effort to no avail.

Swear I saw that hole pattern earlier this morning.

I am not quitting... I just gonna give it rest and pass the torch for a bit.

 

[ARC]

Ya know... before I go eat... I might add... SOME plates were "altered" to fit other stocks etc... hole(s) COULD have been added.

Resembles the bess... the tower... a rarer Ketland... on and on.

:/

 

[smokeythecat]

Thank you for trying. I did try that British forum. Anyway, it and the nails and spikes are sitting in a bag of water. In 3 or 4 days I will test the water for salinity with a hydrometer. If there is any salt in it I will change out the water and keep doing this until it reads "0". I need to put all the stuff away, its on the couch right now.

 

[ARC]

BTW... this isn't the first NOR I'm sure will it be the last lock plate that has eluded here on Tnet.

 

[smokeythecat]

Right on there. It was higher in the trash pit, it that means anything.

 

[ARC]

Doglock... Brown bess.

Final answer.

:P

 

[Red James Cash]

Dont worry smokey.There were alot of gun makers back then that made copies and are basically unknown.Believe it or not once NAs got their hands on guns they did have their own gunsmiths.Yours could be an original or a copy where the blacksmith,gunsmith deviated some from the original.