🔎 UNIDENTIFIED Need help with 2 Buttons...

[CRUSADER]

Can't find the pattern/type for what I assume is a 7th Reg of Foot Officer Button. Hard to see but has Crown at top, some kind of decor around.

Another interest one, not sure if early Military or the motto is linked to various families, but then doesn't look Livery;
''regi regnoque fidelis'' (faithful to king and kingdom) Union Flag in centre.
Backmark - I.M.GOWAN LONDON

 

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Can't find the pattern/type for what I assume is a 7th Reg of Foot Officer Button. Hard to see but has Crown at top, some kind of decor around.

Another interest one, not sure if early Military or the motto is linked to various families, but then doesn't look Livery;
''regi regnoque fidelis'' (faithful to king and kingdom) Union Flag in centre.
Backmark - I.M.GOWAN LONDON


View attachment 2025307View attachment 2025308

That is a great find....love the style of the 7....

 

[pepperj]

Can't find the pattern/type for what I assume is a 7th Reg of Foot Officer Button. Hard to see but has Crown at top, some kind of decor around.

Another interest one, not sure if early Military or the motto is linked to various families, but then doesn't look Livery;
''regi regnoque fidelis'' (faithful to king and kingdom) Union Flag in centre.
Backmark - I.M.GOWAN LONDON


View attachment 2025307View attachment 2025308

On the bottom of yours the letter D is just visible.

Dragoon and Light Dragoon Buttons

Images of the British Dragoon and Light Dragoon buttons

asahelena.wixsite.com

 

[CRUSADER]

On the bottom of yours the letter D is just visible.
View attachment 2025439

Dragoon and Light Dragoon Buttons

Images of the British Dragoon and Light Dragoon buttons

asahelena.wixsite.com

Yeap 1 down 1 to go cheers. Funny thing is I checked that Site at Cru'dad's after the clean up & never spotted it!

 

[pepperj]

Yeap 1 down 1 to go cheers. Funny thing is I checked that Site at Cru'dad's after the clean up & never spotted it!

I went through and just about missed it again also.
The 7 shows so well but the outside rim is cruddy/worn
Nice one though for the collection.

 

[Gare]

How about pictures of the back also

 

[CRUSADER]

I went through and just about missed it again also.
The 7 shows so well but the outside rim is cruddy/worn
Nice one though for the collection.

Yeap, I need them both.

 

[CRUSADER]

How about pictures of the back also

There is no need for a reverse shot as it will not help the ID, as there is no back-mark (thats why I stated the back-mark of the one I could see that wouldn't picture well enough to even see the letters)on the Flag one & its a classic 1 piece slightly concaved silver gilt button. So circa early 1800s.

 

[CRUSADER]

Bump - anyone know the Flag one?

 

[Red-Coat]

Hi Cru

I’ve never seen a similar button but I agree it doesn’t look to be livery… or at least not family livery (for which the Pocock and the Simpson families would have been among the possibilities). One thing for sure is that it’s a Union flag including the saltire of St Patrick (for Ireland), so it has to be 1801 or later and the motto is generically patriotic to the extent it may not have any specific heritage.

I have three thoughts.

1. It may be a patriotic pro-Royal button produced in celebration of the Act of Union that created the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (1st January 1801).

2. It may be a privately-issued Local Volunteer/Militia button, in which case it would most likely be between 1801 and about 1815 at the latest. In general, the raising and funding of local volunteers by landed gentry and other wealthy individuals was an overt act of patriotic loyalty to King and Country. It also wasn’t unusual for those who raised such units to transfer elements of their family heraldy or mottoes to the ‘insignia’ of the unit (so that still leaves the possibility of a family heraldry connection).
For example there’s a silver presentation teapot relating to the Westmorland East and West Wards Local Militia at the link below which has the same motto (presumed by Christies to have been the motto of the Regiment at the time) but with other heraldic elements.
https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-4836377

3. Although unlikely to be a family livery button, I wouldn’t rule our company livery. There is for example a very tenuous connection to the Mercer’s Livery Company that began life as a benevolent association for cloth merchants in London, also later having a church and a school. In 1890 the Company sought to expand the school and, the following year, acquired the premises of Barnard’s Inn in Holborn. It was also known as Mackworth's Inn since it had formerly been a Chancery, belonging (in the time of Henry VI) to Dr. John Mackworth, Dean of Lincoln. The arms of the inn, seen both inside and outside the building were those of Mackworth: party per pale, indented ermine and sable, a chevron gules fretted or with the motto “Regi Regnoque Fidelis”. I doubt the button is as late as 1891 though, there’s no heraldic similarity, and I can find no evidence for the school using the motto. I don’t think there’s much mileage in that suggestion, but more an indication that the motto has a long history of usage.

If I were a betting person, my money would be on #1… a patriotic button likely produced around 1801 or soon after.

 

[CRUSADER]

Hi Cru

I’ve never seen a similar button but I agree it doesn’t look to be livery… or at least not family livery (for which the Pocock and the Simpson families would have been among the possibilities). One thing for sure is that it’s a Union flag including the saltire of St Patrick (for Ireland), so it has to be 1801 or later and the motto is generically patriotic to the extent it may not have any specific heritage. Good point about the 1801 date didn't think of that but didn't think it was pre-1800 either.

I have three thoughts.

1. It may be a patriotic pro-Royal button produced in celebration of the Act of Union that created the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (1st January 1801). May be

2. It may be a privately-issued Local Volunteer/Militia button, in which case it would most likely be between 1801 and about 1815 at the latest. In general, the raising and funding of local volunteers by landed gentry and other wealthy individuals was an overt act of patriotic loyalty to King and Country. It also wasn’t unusual for those who raised such units to transfer elements of their family heraldy or mottoes to the ‘insignia’ of the unit (so that still leaves the possibility of a family heraldry connection). This is my best guess.
For example there’s a silver presentation teapot relating to the Westmorland East and West Wards Local Militia at the link below which has the same motto (presumed by Christies to have been the motto of the Regiment at the time) but with other heraldic elements.
https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-4836377 - Yes saw that, pity it didn't tie up with my button. The Westmoreland Militias didn't have time type, as far as I'm aware.

3. Although unlikely to be a family livery button, I wouldn’t rule our company livery. There is for example a very tenuous connection to the Mercer’s Livery Company that began life as a benevolent association for cloth merchants in London, also later having a church and a school. In 1890 the Company sought to expand the school and, the following year, acquired the premises of Barnard’s Inn in Holborn. It was also known as Mackworth's Inn since it had formerly been a Chancery, belonging (in the time of Henry VI) to Dr. John Mackworth, Dean of Lincoln. The arms of the inn, seen both inside and outside the building were those of Mackworth: party per pale, indented ermine and sable, a chevron gules fretted or with the motto “Regi Regnoque Fidelis”. I doubt the button is as late as 1891 though, there’s no heraldic similarity, and I can find no evidence for the school using the motto. I don’t think there’s much mileage in that suggestion, but more an indication that the motto has a long history of usage. Maybe link with a company, but doesn't feel right.

If I were a betting person, my money would be on #1… a patriotic button likely produced around 1801 or soon after. I'm going with No.2 at this point.

Thanks for your thoughts, it is an oddity, my gut was 1800-30s Militia. (I've already found 5 unknown Militia types this might be another, not sure) See my thoughts in Red above by expanding.

 

[Gene Mean]

Would location found be any help or just a random field?

 

[CRUSADER]

Would location found be any help or just a random field?

Probably not a lot of help to ID it. I've had Militia Buttons from Ireland, so even small units of 'local' militia get spread around the Country. If it had Initials on it & it was an 'unknown' Militia they then try and guess the Towns based on the letter & already 'Known' examples as a form of elimination. Nothing in our local area would help pin down any other type of button with a Union Flag on it.