Need help to ID This Weapon

[Texas Kid]

I was gifted this weapon which I know is a percussion/muzzle loader. Just would like to know where & when it might have been made .Barrel has a .63 bore@ muzzle. These pictures were taken after clean up and I hope they help. I have a ton more pictures but these are of marking in the hardware. Would appreciate any help yo can provide ! Thanks! The Kid

 

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[Texas Kid]

Hey Ken ! Thanks for all your help! Hope you have a good year with your hunting and I will get back with you when I get this little jewel back together! I know I goofed with the cleanup,but that thing was really corroded and ,like you, I didn't feel like it was a very important weapon so I blasted it with glass. Also thanks for the link and the tips on the finish. now I need tips on redoing the stock. Its real rough!! Thanks again Good hunting ! The Kid

I found a modern .62 cal Hawken rifle online that looks a lot like yours.... I'll try to re find the pic and post more info later

 

[Texas Kid]

Austin , This little jewel was gifted to me by the family of one of my best running buddies,who recently passed. I have no idea where he came up with it. But I going to guess in a poker game or some wild trade of some sort.It's a neat little weapon. Older that heck. I just wish I could date or identify the darn thing! Im all ears if you have a lead.Hell it might have come from the Alamo ! Who knows Good Luck to ya and take care of that beautiful city!!!!!!!!

 

[BosnMate]

Regarding the stock, wash it with soap and water, then liberally oil it with tung oil or linseed oil. Don't sand it, you will just screw it up that much more. For future information, for anyone that reads this and has an antique firearm. If the metal is heavily rusted use liberal amounts of 3 in 1 oil, and a piece of brass, and scrape the
oiled rust off using the brass. I use the edge of a fired 30-06 brass and an a piece of sheet brass for scrapers. This method will remove most of the rust and leave the
patina, which is everything when it comes to an antique firearm. The best advice is if you don't know, don't do it. I will look better browned, but in my opinion it won't
increase the value, just the looks. The octagon to round barrel, along with the length of the barrel, and the shape to the trigger guard makes me think it's a later cap lock era Indian Trade musket. Is the plate opposite the lock in the shape of a serpent or dragon? Your lock doesn't have the fox sitting in a circle which is another dead giveaway, so my swag is probably wrong, but the fox in a circle was common on trade musket locks, except is wasn't on all of them.

 

[Texas Kid]

Great tips Thanks a millionThe Kid

 

[NOLA_Ken]

The biggest problem I see with your stock is the cracks on the left side. If you gently squeeze them will they close up at all? Don't force them, or you might break them off....If they close up fairly tightly they can be repaired somewhat, at least enough for appearances. It's kind of a pain to do, especially without doing anything to the old patina of the wood.

Like BosnMate said, rebrowning the metal, won't add any value, but it certainly won't take any away either. Also it will give it a nice antique look and keep it from rusting again so long as you wipe it with oil once in a while. I think it's a neat old gun, and I'd be happy to have it on my wall. But I'm weird like that and tend to like the things that collectors don't care for....

 

[Daryn]

Unfortunately you just destroyed the value by cleaning it. Never clean your guns until they are appraised and have a professional smith do the minimum amount of work only.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Well, I got bored and spent some time trying to find those proof marks, but no luck. My thought is that your gun may have started life as a militia gun, I say that because of the provision for a sling swivel on the trigger guard which was more of a military than civilian rifle thing. It's possible the barrel is a converted flintlock barrel as well, pics of the drum from a couple angles might help figure that out.

It could be a parts gun that someone put together, but the side plate looks to fit very nicely in the stock, which makes me think it, and the lock are original to the stock, can you post a pic of the lock in the stock, and also the trigger and guard in place? Just to see how well they match the cut outs....

Either way, like so many of those old muskets, someone cut it down to use as a squirrel gun, and I'd imagine it spent that last years of it's use as a shotgun. I like it, I think it's cool seeing those old guns with a story, even though we'll never really know what the story is.

 

[Texas Kid]

If the situation ever presents itself again ,I promise you I will do exactly as you say! Man I've had so many butt whippin's over that I feel like a rented mule

Unfortunately you just destroyed the value by cleaning it. Never clean your guns until they are appraised and have a professional smith do the minimum amount of work only.

 

[Tedyoh]

Does it look like the end of the barrel has been cut? If so Id think there would be a burr on the outside somewhere or you should see some cut marks in the metal itself. I just dont see why they would cut a barrel down back then, you lose velocity and accuracy with a shorter barrel, makes no sense to me for hunting purposes.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

I'm leaning towards the lock being license built (or just copied) from an 1850 something Enfield by a Nepalese or Indian arsenal. It's close but not completely, also lacks all the crown and date stamps that an Enfield would carry.

The barrel I have no idea. Stock - still haven't seen the right side to see if it had a capbox or cartouche - but I assume not as if present they would likely have been offered

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Does it look like the end of the barrel has been cut? If so Id think there would be a burr on the outside somewhere or you should see some cut marks in the metal itself. I just dont see why they would cut a barrel down back then, you lose velocity and accuracy with a shorter barrel, makes no sense to me for hunting purposes.

A lot of those old muskets were cut down and used as shotguns, long range accuracy isn't really a concern with birdshot. It made them more manageable, and easier to aim.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

I'm leaning towards the lock being license built (or just copied) from an 1850 something Enfield by a Nepalese or Indian arsenal. It's close but not completely, also lacks all the crown and date stamps that an Enfield would carry.

The barrel I have no idea. Stock - still haven't seen the right side to see if it had a capbox or cartouche - but I assume not as if present they would likely have been offered

I wondered about those too, but I haven't seen any Nepalese marks that match. It's a possibility, but I wonder how long the previous owner had it, were those Nepalese guns really available here before IMA bought them out? ... It could be something that was thrown together with parts from Bannermans for all we know.

 

[Texas Kid]

I want to thank all you fellows for your very valuable input. I have learned a lot from ya'll and its all well taken . I will get back to you with more pictures when I get this dude back in one piece. Maybe that will give you a few more leads to help me out. I know its not worth much ,but I'm kinda like ya'll ! I just want to hang it on the wall and tell lies to my Grand kids how my Grandpa fought off the Indians with it!!LOL You fellows are great sports and I respect and thank you for your knowledge ! The Kid

I wondered about those too, but I haven't seen any Nepalese marks that match. It's a possibility, but I wonder how long the previous owner had it, were those Nepalese guns really available here before IMA bought them out? ... It could be something that was thrown together with parts from Bannermans for all we know.

 

[Retired Sarge]

As already stated the one mark appears to be an Austrian Eagle, the rifle has traits similar to that of the Austrian Model 1854. Notice how the barrel starts out octagonal then goes rounded.

Austrian Model 1854 Lorenz rifle for sale

 

[NOLA_Ken]

As already stated the one mark appears to be an Austrian Eagle, the rifle has traits similar to that of the Austrian Model 1854. Notice how the barrel starts out octagonal then goes rounded.

Austrian Model 1854 Lorenz rifle for sale

It has a similar profile, but the Lorenz has a different tang on the barrel, no sling swivel on the trigger guard, and the lock plate is different.

 

[Retired Sarge]

Under the hammer on the side of the lock plate is two numbers that I can see, should be three for a date. Starts with 8 from what I can see. Should date the rifle, narrowing down what models it could be.

There would/should be 3 numbers for a date, 8?? would be 18??.

 

[Johncoho]

I'm no expert, but it appears to be British Royal Navy, and may have been used on a ship. It is very short and would have been for close quarters fighting. Just a guess.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

The Sea Service Musket is a .76 Cal, much larger than this one.

 

[cwpvt100]

Might want to look into the possibility of a Swiss canton musket, they have similar initials on the lock plate faces and come in a huge variety due to differing makers. Try googling 1842 Swiss Musket.