✅ SOLVED NEED HELP ID'ING A MINIE BALL

[can_slaw]

I am relatively new to treasure hunting, so I do not have all of the necessary literature yet. I am hopeful someone will be able to pull out their trusted resource manual and help me figure out the most likely match for this little beauty.

Here are the facts that I know about it:

- no rings
- .525 wide is the most "common" measurement i was able to pull from around the face.
- There appears to be a wider portion at the bottom near the base. Because of deformity i cannot measure all of the way around. Best i can find for measurement is .542
- There also appears to be two markings inside the base, one of them looks to be a "5". Looks like possibly "75".
- It came from a Union military hospital site in Wisconsin. It was found by what was later described to me as a former "body parts pit" for the hospital. Apparently they buried the parts after amputations?

Here are the questions that i have:

- What caliber?
- Which side most likely used it?
- Does it look fired, chewed, or perhaps both? If fired I can only assume it was put there with whatever body part it was lodged in!

Any help will be greatly appreciated!!

 

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[can_slaw]

If it is in fact a Civil War bullet, which I have no idea if it is, my SWAG on the damage to the base of the bullet, is when it hit, what ever it hit, the bullet was at terminal velocity, and was tumbling, and impacted base first.

Thank you for the insight BosnMate.
That stands to reason it could have been fired into the air and tumbled as it fell. Then it hit the ground and caused the damage to the base. Seems reasonable.
Also seems like if that be the case, it would probably mean that it is not from a civil war injury, but from something more like CarolinaTom suspected (post civil war tom-foolery at the then outskirts of town).
If that proves to be the case, i will be disappointed. But that also means i still get to dig my very first civil war bullet.

Even on the darkest of days, there is always a silver lining.

 

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[Carolina Tom]

Thank you for the insight BosnMate.
That stands to reason it could have been fired into the air and tumbled as it fell. Then it hit the ground and caused the damage to the base. Seems reasonable.
Also seems like if that be the case, it would probably mean that it is not from a civil war injury, but from something more like CarolinaTom suspected (post civil war tom-foolery at the then outskirts of town).
If that proves to be the case, i will be disappointed. But that also means i still get to dig my very first civil war bullet.

Even on the darkest of days, there is always a silver lining.

Just to clarify, I want it to be a CW bullet, however, I suspect that it is a post CW round that was used for deer hunting. My uneducated guess is .54 caliber muzzle loader. I assume it came from Wisconsin, and that is long way from the CW activity that I am familiar with, I can't imagine a soldier with that lodged inside of him making the trip to Wisconsin for surgery... in a wagon or on a train, he wouldn't have survived the trip.

I don't like being the Debbie Downer in the crowd. I know exactly how it feels to be under the impression that you've found something good, only to be informed that your new prize is not what you thought.

Hopefully a someone that know what they are talking about well ID it shortly, where is CannonBallGuy?

 

[Davers]

The funny part is seeing it has impact marks on the back instead of the front. Usually the other way around. If it was a conical bass I could see where the damaged base would make it appear to be a flat base

Still scrolling down , I love the excitement, 'Having hit backwards will help the OP to hopefully have himself a Historical Civil War Bullet.'

 

[can_slaw]

Just to clarify, I want it to be a CW bullet, however, I suspect that it is a post CW round that was used for deer hunting. My uneducated guess is .54 caliber muzzle loader. I assume it came from Wisconsin, and that is long way from the CW activity that I am familiar with, I can't imagine a soldier with that lodged inside of him making the trip to Wisconsin for surgery... in a wagon or on a train, he wouldn't have survived the trip.

I don't like being the Debbie Downer in the crowd. I know exactly how it feels to be under the impression that you've found something good, only to be informed that your new prize is not what you thought.

Hopefully a someone that know what they are talking about well ID it shortly, where is CannonBallGuy?

I know fully well you are not trying to be a debbie downer Mr. Tom. In fact, i feel you are trying to do the opposite. The Fort Crawford military hospital museum, which this was found right behind it, was apparently where quite a few Union soldiers were sent to recover from their injuries from battle.
Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia on our local fort hospital:

"Fort Crawford Museum

Ruins of the Fort Crawford hospital, 1903, rebuilt and now used as a museum.
Except during the American Civil War, when the fort was used as both a recruitment center and hospital for Union soldiers, Fort Crawford was left unoccupied between 1856 and 1933. In 1933, the Daughters of the American Revolution began work on reconstructing a portion of the fort's hospital, while clearing away the remaining parts of the dilapidated fort to allow for development. In the 1960s, the reconstructed fort hospital was transformed into a museum of medical history called the Fort Crawford Museum of Medical Progress. The museum featured exhibits on the experiments by Dr. Beaumont and other medical innovations. It was operated by the Wisconsin Medical Society until 1995. In 1996, the museum was gifted to the Prairie du Chien Historical Society and converted into a museum of local history called the Prairie du Chien Museum at Fort Crawford. While the fort's hospital, which is registered as a National Historic Landmark, still houses exhibits related to Dr. Beaumont and medical history, adjacent buildings are now filled with exhibits on other aspects of Prairie du Chien history."

I know you want it to be a CW bullet, as do I. The possibility is there (maybe a field doctor gave it to the soldier he pulled it from as kind of "souvenir" before sending him here to recuperate), but i fear it may be too badly damaged to say one way or another. So until an expert on the matter is able to chime in and verify, i will air on the side of caution and agree with you that it may not be. I always appreciate your insight as I learn.

 

[Davers]

Yak beat me to the 'Enfield' as being a possible type. IMO It would be a .54 cal ( The Enfield types in my T & T Handbook of Civil War Bullets& Cartridges has True Enfield bullets being .577 ) Strangely says they were loaded upside down with the tip of the bullet resting on the powder -charge.
I'd love to learn about that.

Many Enfield types were .54 in caliber (I do not know if the .54 's had a Number or letter in their bases.)

That said I 'Super Zoomed' your bullets base & could not make out a number ( not that there is not one ) '57' is a common one. DK about 75 tho ??

The weight seems to be a bit light for a 54 Enfield/ 'Slick'as the Vet-Diggers called them. but that loss could easily come from impact .

It does' look 'in some pictures like there were/are slight rings but soft lead is easily dented by sharp caliper blades.

Sounds like You know the history of your town , so I don't ? how a CW bullet could get there.

You may never know but I truly hope you can figure it out. 'Def a Big Bore Bullet being over .50 cal.'.
Davers

 

[Davers]

It looks similar to a .54 caliber modern muzzle loader round. I am by no means an expert at this.

Look at the Great Plains bullet in this pic. The tip looks similar to your first pic. Also the absence of a white patina makes me think that it's more modern.

Funny Tom I dug the ' Maxi Ball ' type with patina & all.
In my heart I knew what it was , I put it in the bottom of my display (as an oddity) and took it to my Club Meeting where a Veteran Digger said " You outta put that nice Carved bullet up for find of the Month" I hastily did ...Still Nobody said anything about the bullet , I lost 'To a Plate of Course'.

Later posted the display on T- NET & TCBG Confirmed my suspicion as the the true 'I'd of the "Carved" bullet.

Oh OP.
Yr right I have dug Civil War Bullets that were not patina'd , seems Burnside Bullets & certain Sharps don't patina well .
Also water found bullets seem to lack the Pretty White /Beige patina.

Don't loose hope OP on your Bullet & also search for more when you can .
Good Day.

 

[can_slaw]

Yak beat me to the 'Enfield' as being a possible type. IMO It would be a .54 cal ( The Enfield types in my T & T Handbook of Civil War Bullets& Cartridges has True Enfield bullets being .577 ) Strangely says they were loaded upside down with the tip of the bullet resting on the powder -charge.
I'd love to learn about that.

Many Enfield types were .54 in caliber (I do not know if the .54 's had a Number or letter in their bases.)

That said I 'Super Zoomed' your bullets base & could not make out a number ( not that there is not one ) '57' is a common one. DK about 75 tho ??

The weight seems to be a bit light for a 54 Enfield/ 'Slick'as the Vet-Diggers called them. but that loss could easily come from impact .

It does' look 'in some pictures like there were/are slight rings but soft lead is easily dented by sharp caliper blades.

Sounds like You know the history of your town , so I don't ? how a CW bullet could get there.

You may never know but I truly hope you can figure it out. 'Def a Big Bore Bullet being over .50 cal.'.
Davers

Thank you for the kind words of encouragement! i am hopeful i can figure it out, as there are a lot of experts on here with 100's of years of combined experience between them who have been able to help ID a lot worse pieces of history. I am optimistic the Calvary is on the way!!

 

[Yak1366]

Yak beat me to the 'Enfield' as being a possible type. IMO It would be a .54 cal ( The Enfield types in my T & T Handbook of Civil War Bullets& Cartridges has True Enfield bullets being .577 ) Strangely says they were loaded upside down with the tip of the bullet resting on the powder -charge.
I'd love to learn about that.

Many Enfield types were .54 in caliber (I do not know if the .54 's had a Number or letter in their bases.)

That said I 'Super Zoomed' your bullets base & could not make out a number ( not that there is not one ) '57' is a common one. DK about 75 tho ??

The weight seems to be a bit light for a 54 Enfield/ 'Slick'as the Vet-Diggers called them. but that loss could easily come from impact .

It does' look 'in some pictures like there were/are slight rings but soft lead is easily dented by sharp caliper blades.

Sounds like You know the history of your town , so I don't ? how a CW bullet could get there.

You may never know but I truly hope you can figure it out. 'Def a Big Bore Bullet being over .50 cal.'.
Davers

Davers, I didn't say his bullet was an Enfield. There are no grooves on Enfields. I said, I have only seen #'s etc in Enfields.
You are right about the 0.577" caliber which is the main caliber for the P53 Rifle Musket. The British Board of Ordnance also produced 0.550" caliber in order "to gain an ease in loading". The 55 is a rare bullet and I am lucky to have one!
Also, there are no 54 caliber & below Enfields listed in the Dean Thomas Roundball to Rimfire Vol 4 (Which is only for Confederate Ordnance).
They are a number of smooth bullets (no grooves) at 54 caliber, but they called primarily Mississippi Rifle bullets, and there are a few called Tennessee Rifle bullets.

can_slaw's bullet is definitely not an Enfield.

 

[Yak1366]

can_slaw, the middle bullet in my pic was a bullet found back in the mid 1980s. It was a surface find by one of the landowners I document for. I'm sure the reason for it's patina was due to it's handling over the years. All the nice chalky white patina was rubbed off due to constant handling.

The other bullets were dug, cleaned & put away in a case by me. Soil types affect patina. The ones I've found in pond areas, generally will be a little darker.

 

[can_slaw]

can_slaw, the middle bullet in my pic was a bullet found back in the mid 1980s. It was a surface find by one of the landowners I document for. I'm sure the reason for it's patina was due to it's handling over the years. All the nice chalky white patina was rubbed off due to constant handling.

The other bullets were dug, cleaned & put away in a case by me. Soil types affect patina. The ones I've found in pond areas, generally will be a little darker.

Thank you Yak1366 for all of your insights today, you have been most helpful!

 

[Yak1366]

Thank you Yak1366 for all of your insights today, you have been most helpful!

It won't even be a drop in a bucket compared to when the Master chimes in, but thanks.
I only state what I know from personal experience, research & what I have learned from this fantastic website. This bunch is good and loaded with way more experience than I.

 

[Davers]

Davers, I didn't say his bullet was an Enfield. There are no grooves on Enfields. I said, I have only seen #'s etc in Enfields.
You are right about the 0.577" caliber which is the main caliber for the P53 Rifle Musket. The British Board of Ordnance also produced 0.550" caliber in order "to gain an ease in loading". The 55 is a rare bullet and I am lucky to have one!
Also, there are no 54 caliber & below Enfields listed in the Dean Thomas Roundball to Rimfire Vol 4 (Which is only for Confederate Ordnance).
They are a number of smooth bullets (no grooves) at 54 caliber, but they called primarily Mississippi Rifle bullets, and there are a few called Tennessee Rifle bullets.

can_slaw's bullet is definitely not an Enfield.

You are correct, I should have stated that you beat me to "Enfield bullet types are the only ones known to have numbers in their cavities .

Sorry my mind gets ahead of my typing.

Thanks for the additional 'Enfield' info as well.
Davers

 

[can_slaw]

I keep looking at what I believe to be numbers, and then looking at pictures online of others with inner markings, and a key difference just dawned on me. What I am seeing is not raised like all of the others, mine is set into the patina, almost like an engraved number. I think the "5" I am seeing is maybe something in the patina and my eyes just REALLY want it to be there. Whatever it is, it is in the shape of an old timey 5, but I am guessing it is not "supposed" to be there.

 

[civil_war22]

I’m still trying to look at this one. I’ve got many of them with that look. I’ve got white ones, brown ones, some that came out brown looking like there was a clear coat on them

 

[can_slaw]

I’m still trying to look at this one. I’ve got many of them with that look. I’ve got white ones, brown ones, some that came out brown looking like there was a clear coat on them

I am waiting like a kid on Christmas eve for the ID that seems to make the most sense. I keep checking back, in hopes that a positive ID is possible. Thank you for the effort you are putting into helping me!

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Yak1366 wrote:
> "In my experience, the only Civil War bullets with markings in the base are Enfields."

Just a friendly heads-up for you. Take a look at the T&T "Handbook of Civil War Bullets & Cartridges" bullets #151 (3-groove Minie with raised star in flat-bottomed cone cavity), and 152 (3-groove Minie with raised "US" in flat-bottomed cone cavity). Also, although the book doesn't mention the base-cavity markings, bullet #164, the Confederate "Tom Greene Enfield," made in Texas, sometimes has "57" in its base cavity.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Can_slaw wrote:
> "I am waiting like a kid on Christmas eve for the ID that seems to make the most sense. I keep checking back, in hopes that a positive ID is possible."

Unfortunately, in my professional opinion, speaking as a 40+ years digger and DEALER of civil war bullets, a definite ID of you bullet is not possible, due to the extensive damage it has suffered.

It is a confoundedly close call. On the plus side, we have your "averaged" diameter measurement of .525-inch, and the reported weight of 420 grains which puts it in the ballpark for a .54-caliber civil war bullet. On the negative side, there are postwar bullets which weigh in that same range. Also, most importantly, your photo seems to show the bullet has a very shallow "bowl" or "dish" base-cavity... and none of the books on civil war bullets show a .54-caliber no-grooves/rings bullet which has that cavity. So, I would have to say it is not a civil war bullet.

The T&T "Handbook Of Civil War Bullets & Cartridges" shows a .54-caliber one (bullet #140) which has "three faint grooves with elliptical cavity (.287" deep)"... but it weighs only 378 grains, which is much less (42 grains) than your bullet weighs.

Other negative clues have already been mentioned. It's extremely unlikely that a wounded yankee soldier got shipped all the way from a Dixie battlefield to Wisconsin with a bullet still in his wound and had surgery to remove it there. Bullets were removed as promptly as possible for the EXTREMELY important purpose of cleaning out the wound thoroughly to prevent infection. Also, the patina rubbing off the lead so quickly just from handling suggest the bullet is from a good bit later than the civil war.

In your photo, the bottom of your bullet's base-cavity appears to be dirt-filled. Is that an optical illusion, or is there still dirt in it which could be removed? If the latter, please clean it out and post a photo showing the result. I'm hoping it is a dirt-filled cone cavity.

 

[can_slaw]

Dear Mr Cannonball Guy,
THANK YOU! The insight you offered, while disappointing to see my once "CW" bullet reduced to more ordinary lead, I gained a great bit of knowledge from a true professional in the field, and like I said earlier that means I still get to dig my first CW bullet! I have war buttons and a buckle already from the same site. These have been a bit easier to ID though.
As far as the dirt goes, it is an illusion. I picked at it with a toothpick, and it was just patina.
You all have been just wonderful with your kind words and professional insight in your unpaid quest to help a stranger. In this day and age it's too easy to become a keyboard warrior. But all of you didn't. My mind is made up, and my finds journal entry has been changed to read "un-identifiable .54 caliber minie ball, most likely post civil war". Now for the weather to hurry up and get warm again!

 

[Yak1366]

Yak1366 wrote:
> "In my experience, the only Civil War bullets with markings in the base are Enfields."

Just a friendly heads-up for you. Take a look at the T&T "Handbook of Civil War Bullets & Cartridges" bullets #151 (3-groove Minie with raised star in flat-bottomed cone cavity), and 152 (3-groove Minie with raised "US" in flat-bottomed cone cavity). Also, although the book doesn't mention the base-cavity markings, bullet #164, the Confederate "Tom Greene Enfield," made in Texas, sometimes has "57" in its base cavity.

And that's exactly why I prefaced my statement with "In my experience...". I need to get more books!

 

[Yak1366]

Great Info again TCBG!!
I noticed however there was no mention on how those grooves were made. Is that an example of "pressed & turned" and/or "machined" grooves?