Navy Halts Sunken Ship Project

[Badger Bart]

Personally I think something is fishy here... Bart.

Navy halts sunken ship project
By Mark Stodghill

Duluth News Tribune

(MCT)

DULUTH, Minn. - St. Louis County, Minn., Undersheriff Dave Phillips' efforts to photograph the inside of the sunken heavy cruiser USS Houston for its survivors association have been halted by the U.S. Navy before he could get his remote-controlled underwater camera into the ship.

Barbara Voulgaris of the Underwater Archaeology branch of the Naval Historical Center in Washington, D.C., said her office and the U.S. Justice Department were forwarded a Duluth News Tribune story reporting Phillips' trip to Indonesia to film the inside of the ship, which was sunk by the Japanese during World War II.

Voulgaris wanted to know how to reach Phillips.

"We've got some concerns because it's not legal for him (or his camera) to go inside the wreck or to take things off of it," Voulgaris said. She said Phillips also wouldn't be allowed to send his camera into the ship because it had the potential to disturb the site.

"As soon as they disturb it without the permission of the Navy - that's where the problem is," she said.

Phillips used vacation time and planned to photograph the inside of the ship. He joined a team headed by Jerry Ranger, a lieutenant with the Santa Rosa County Sheriff's Office in Florida and the son of a USS Houston survivor and prisoner of war.

Ranger was awakened by the News Tribune at 2 a.m. Saturday, aboard a 40-foot boat he and Phillips were sleeping on near the sunken ship. He didn't want to wake Phillips.Ranger had earlier received a phone call from Voulgaris.

"The USS Houston group is very behind this dive and they are upset and very concerned," Ranger said. "They want us to continue on with their wishes of entering the ship, not to loot but to photograph the deterioration of a World War II vessel that their organization survived."

However, because of Voulgaris' call, Ranger said the planned exploration of the ship's interior is in limbo.

Voulgaris referred to Title XIV of the National Defense Authorization Act signed by President Bush in 2004.

The Naval Historical Center said the purpose of Title XIV, generally referred to as the Sunken Military Craft act, is to protect sunken military vessels and aircraft and the remains of their crews from unauthorized disturbance.

The USS Houston went down on March 1, 1942, in the Sunda Straits off Java. Of 1,008 crew members, only 368 survived.

Phillips was contacted by the USS Houston Survivors Association because of his experience using a remotely operated vehicle camera during his duties with the sheriff's office and its volunteer rescue squad.

Val Poss, executive director of the USS Houston Survivors Association and the daughter of another USS Houston survivor, said that the planned exploration of the ship's interior has been halted because of the Navy's intervention.

"Originally, I was incredulous," Poss said by telephone from her home in Pflugerville, Texas. "I can understand their position of not wanting strangers to go in. However, these men have a personal interest. They are doing it for the survivors and for the history of the ship."

Poss said that several times over the years her association has tried to find someone in the Department of the Navy that "could assist us with stopping the looting of the ship." She said private divers have taken guns, brass fittings and other items for themselves, some of which have wound up being sold in Jakarta.

"The U.S. embassy in Jakarta advised us more than a half-dozen years ago that the ship was in international waters and that there was nothing that could be done," Poss said.

Now all her group wants is to be able to photograph the inside of the ship before it falls apart.

"Why after 64 years are we doing this? We are doing this for the memory to continue," Poss said, her voice cracking. "Excuse me, I get emotional. These young boys died for our freedoms. Our fathers spent 3 years in hell (POW camps) to come home. We owe it to them to keep the history of this sacred ship alive and to share those pictures, not only with the survivors, but if our government would allow it, the world."

Poss was working the phones Friday. She had calls into Washington, D.C., Duluth and to the boat Phillips and Ranger are on.

She couldn't reach Voulgaris, but said someone else in the Naval Historical Center office told her it would take 90 days to get the proper permit from the Navy to explore the ship.

"I explained to her that we had people at the site and it was costing them $1,000 a day, and they didn't have 90 days to wait, and asked if we could expedite this," Poss said. "I was advised that it still takes 90 days."

Voulgaris told the News Tribune that she didn't want to "look like the big, bad government coming down with the hammer." But because of the existing law, the men exploring the USS Houston faced the possibility of being arrested if they disturbed anything in the ship or tried to enter the U.S. with any artifacts from the ship, she said.

"We just found out about it (the exploration) yesterday," Voulgaris said. "Unfortunately, we can't just give them carte blanche permission to do whatever they want on the wreck. We told Jerry Ranger you can dive on the wreck, you can take pictures of it (from outside), but please don't disturb it without permission from the U.S. government."

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/nation/15265612.htm

 

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[Darren in NC]

But war graves are war graves no matter where they are. That's been settled for a long time now.

Not with everyone. The debate rages on...

 

[Badger Bart]

What seemed apparent to me was that the US Navy could not/ would not prevent foreign nationals from 'salvaging' on or in the wreck, yet told an American that he could not even go inside to takes pics. And that in waters of another nation. What would have happened if the US Navy had not beeb able to get word to the guy, and he had gone inside and done what he went there to do? Probably nothing. I also wonder if this ship may be connected to the Yamas*h*i*t*a thing somehow.

 

[Darren in NC]

Doc, no need to shout with big red letters. I can understand your emotional attachment to the law since you've experienced such a loss in the Navy. I am indeed sorry for your loss.

But your "right" imposes on mine. For hundreds of years, the law of admiralty has ruled over the seas. It has only been recent that gov'ts have decided to enact "laws" aka "control" over sites they have no business doing so. And to enforce those laws, they had to attach an emotional trigger or else no one would abide by it. So let's call it a war grave. It's not a war grave, it is the scene of an accident. Most of the human remains are long gone. In the cases that they are not, great care and respect should be used to provide a proper burial.

Here in NC many years ago, there were dive shops that collected the bones of German soldiers they found after penetrating a sunken u-boat. They displayed them as trophies. This is blatant disrespect and uncalled for. But rather than enact laws to prosecute such individuals (requiring them to provide a proper burial), the gov't simply dismisses admiralty law and salvage rights and makes the wrecks off limits period. They called it a war grave.

So where are my rights now when the gov't chooses to conveniently ignore their own law? Let's raise the Hunley! Known to have the remains of Lt. Dixon and his crew, they raised it and buried the remains. Huh? Why? Why did they even touch it? It was a war grave already! But...they can do that at their convenience. I can't.

I don't do well with a double standard gov't. Sorry. I abide by their law and try to honor my authority when shipwreck hunting. But that doesn't mean I agree with them.

Best to you,
Darren

 

[Badger Bart]

Doc, I'm not saying you don't have a right in this matter, but don't you dive on ships/ warships where sailors lost their lives? What if all ships were codified to be off- limits because someone at sometime may have lost a family member on them? I can see that happening given the current 'thinking' as the way to end the all the "problems".

 

[Badger Bart]

Thanks Doc, that does clarify the matter for me, which is what I was looking for.

Bart

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI MY two cents. I was in that big one. If I had permanently ended up on one of those islands, I could care less what happened to any temporay remains, most of my friends felt the same. If it was worth dying for, then it was good enough to stay on, as if it made any difference.

As mentioned, what's is the difference between a war loss and a peace time loss??

To me, what remains is not the person any more than that last haircut which was tossed in a waste basket, fingernail clippings, surgical amputations, or, er, ah going to the toilet. All are exactly the same, originally cells from the parent body, yet not the person themselves. The person is more than just a collection of misc cells working in a cummunal effort.

Are we supposed to throw all of the bones in a museum away or rebury them? What about the cremated ones, their ashes are floating around in the air right now hm

Eventually we have to discard this form of ancestor worship which is counter productive, soon there will not be a single spot on the planet that does not have a death associated with it, then what? Is there a single foot of ground in Europe that doesnt' have the remains of a battle or a death, etc?

In the case of a salvaged ship, that dwindling natural resource materiel is going back into society for the better ment of all, intellectually or financially, so why not?

OUR DUTY IS TO THE LIVING, NOT THE DEAD" !

Honor them yes, but do not go overboard.

I have/own a no. of Jeuit Mines, still closed up. All of them have multitudes of death and slavery associated with them, with records of this. Shall I just quietly close them up and forget them?

One major deposit lists 180 Indians killed after they had finished it to keep it secret. Their remains are supposedly still there, is that now untouchable?

El Tropical Tramp

 

[Salvor6]

Hey Tramp, your sentiments are shared by a majority of people. Why not declare a trajic auto accident scene on the expressway a memorial site? Just seal it up and leave it there on the highway. Instead they scrape out the victims and haul away the vehicles to the junk yard. Where is the respect for the victims? Life goes on. The remains of the junk cars are recycled into the mainstream of commerce. Shipwreck cargo should also be returned to commerce.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[diving doc
As I said, 100 years makes a difference as far as I am concerned. With family members of the deceased still living well..................
*******
I tend to agree, but then I remember that most graves that are readily accessable are prob not visited once in a year, if that. Most simply hire the gardening done and relax in a glow if self satisfaction .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There's the law. Change it if you can.
******
There remains that possibility, since countries are overstepping their legal/moral powers. The countries that do not have ocean boundries may just get a bit jealous and react in the UN. A sort of sharing of global resources heheheh.

El Tropical Tramp

 

[thadious]

I am with Diving Doc on this one. I served in the U.S. NAVY for 20 years ten years of that was on submarines during the cold war. I almost did not make it back a couple of times due to playing tag and chicken with the Russians. If I had died out in the ocean on board a submarine or any other ship, I would have wanted my family to grieve and move on with life but not spend their hard earned money trying to bring closure to something they should have dealt with all ready. LEAVE THE DEAD IN THE SHIPS ALONE. They earned the right to rest in peace regardless of which country they fought for. Enough said. I hope this doesn't become political. Politics has hurt the military enough all ready. Anyway thats my two cents worth. HH Ted

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hmm a curious point of semantics, "REST IN PEACE", do the remains actually know this, or even care?

Doc how many of the family actually ever go there in a year? again it is simply relegating the work to another, no personal effort or true emotion involved.

Thadius, I was in the Navy from before day one in ww-2 as enlisted. I was on darn near every Island that had no females, just hairy butted marines, sigh, then in the USAF pilot program for the first part of the Korean war. I have served my time and feel that I can speak!

I used to feel this way also, until I had several years of serious research and experiments in the para normal. I became convinced that there is something that remains after the death of the physical body. I am not sure what it is, soul or whatever, but it does not appear to be concerned with it's former physical body, so why should we?

Why should a war death make any difference from a civilian death as far as the remains are concerned? And equally, why is a "ship" so special as against say a fox hole, or any where else that someone was killed in the war?? I realize that one can become attached to a ship, vehicle, or aircraft in my case, but that doesn't make it special in the eyes of the world.

If someone wants to make an ashtray out of my skull have at it, at least I will still be useful, but I will prob. hope that you get cancer --unless you stop smoking heheh. I would hope that you appreciate the couple of holes in it from WW-2 snicker (my excuse for acting like doc, kinda Asiatic).

El cynical Tropical Tramp

p.s. If the gov't didn't make a show of the war dead, how would they raise an army of gung ho volunteers? Supposedly I have a plot in Arlington, but frankly, it makes no difference to me if I end up under a pile of rocks done in by a bandido down here or a jealous hubby up there ? (one can dream no?)

Sides if the gov'ts really wanted to honor them, they should drop flowers on each grave once every year at least, or is it strictly the possible revenue that really interests them?

Still have the sabers Doc, Thad, or whomever.

 

[Peg Leg]

I am a little confused here
How can you give permission to dig up an ancient grave site anywhere in the world. I do a lot of different things some good and some not so good but I do not mess with gravesites once I find they are gravesites.
I was prospecting in Tucson AZ and recovered what was a Massacre site near the White Mountain. I found skulls with arrow heads in them and a few with busted skulls. I covered them back up and left the place. I discussed this with a few Professors at the University of AZ. They got exceieted and wanted to take their whole class and dig it up. All in the name of History. I never told them where the site was. I feel the same about OLD shipwrecks sites except all the bones have gone back to nature so there is no harm in recovering whatever you find. I am also a Veteran of both Korea and Viet Nam and the Civil War or Diamond War in Sierra Leone West Africa. I have seen my share of death but to make a shrine of a piece of metal is a shame because in the not to distant future there will be those Gave digging College experts going over and through these so called Grave Sites-for the sake of HISTORY.
Peg Leg

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Hmmmm, I just hav..... no never mind!

August 18, 2006 (NORTH AURORA, Ill.) - The exhumation of a Civil War veteran's grave in northern Illinois has unearthed a mystery graveyard.

Archeologists from the University of Illinois' Public Service Archaeology Program began the dig in July in an oak grove in North Aurora. They were looking for Clark Smith's grave. But by Wednesday, they had found at least 19 other caskets.

Officials say the only record of a graveyard on the site is in an 1871 atlas. One page of the book shows a tiny cross west of a schoolhouse along the road.

Illinois Historic Preservation Agency officials say archeologists are going to research historical records and examine the remains for identifying traits.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[=diving doc The point was that in this case the family members are very much alive and they have the right and the govt agreed with them.
That's enough, I'm bored.
******
so easily Doc? Out of character. shucks. K, step aside.

Psychiatrists tend to agree that it is to assuage a sense of guilt by still being alive, for assumed/presumed neglect of the person while alive, or in some cases of an extremely close relationship, a personal temporary loss, unfortunately for many a required public showing --Quien Sabe.

This much I do know, when I die, and if i have a formal funeral, I doubt that more than 5 people will show up, most will be people that I owe money to morning their loss. I bet that even Doc won't be there snifff.

Side thingie, how long do you think that it will be before ALL sunken ships and archaeological sites will be declared out of bounds for the same logical and legally set precedence?? And naturally, with no time factor of 100 years involved?

Like so many other reforms, once the trend is started, it doesn't know where to stop, particularly if $ or prestige is some how involved.

Tropical Tramp

 

[Peg Leg]

Take a trip through time and go all the way bad to Adam and Eve. It does not matter if you believe in the Bible. It has been proven that the Genes of humans can be traced back through the Genes of Females.
A mans genes last only a few generations but a females can be traced to the beginning of time. It has been proven that ALL those born in Europe came from 3 women. The point is that Blood means nothing except to those that retain a memory of those past and when that memory is gone there will be nothing left except what may be written on a stone somewhere and even then that will fad away in time. I recall my Father and Mother but my Grand Children have no idea who they were and in time their childrens children will not remember me.
That is the way life is and has been since the beginning of time and it shall be till the end of time.
Peg Leg

 

[riobravo]

hi peg,
point/ counterpoint if you have bestowed the strengths and values that you live by into your family and it is passed on the only thing that will fade away is your given name fellow mortals have addressed you with and you can make history and that will also be preserved

 

[Peg Leg]

My friend you are correct.
I have 6 children and 14 grandchildren. They are all good hard working kids and respect others. This is hard considering this age and time and confusion in our history.
Every male in my family tree has served in the U.S. Military including my oldest daughter.
There is RESPECT and this was taught them at an early age.
My wife lets me think that I am the head of the household .
Peg Leg

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI, side thingie, none of us are further distant then 32 nd cousins. so all deaths in this world are of relations.

Tropical tramp

 

[Peg Leg]

diving doc,I hate to admit it but you are right NO ONE should be allowed to collect the bones from ANYWHERE. When I cross over Iwill be creamated so there will not be anything left to dig up or playwith except the Silver Urn my ashes will be in. I can see it now my ashes being poured out the the Urn sold for scrap silver. Oh well.
Peg Leg

 

[gord]

diving doc,I hate to admit it but you are right NO ONE should be allowed to collect the bones from ANYWHERE. When I cross over Iwill be creamated so there will not be anything left to dig up or playwith except the Silver Urn my ashes will be in. I can see it now my ashes being poured out the the Urn sold for scrap silver. Oh well.
Peg Leg

Don't leave that temptation for them, then - have them use an old cigar box!