Mystery cannonball (?)

MOCNOC

Tenderfoot
Jul 10, 2013
7
0
Primary Interest:
Other
We're hoping someone can help us identify what appears to be an old cannonball - see photos below.

One aspect of this ball seems unusual: it has a one-inch wide open shaft running through the middle of the ball and that shaft was full of black powder.

We live just north of Cincinnati, in a small house built in 1864 by man named Charles S. Lundy. He was born in Ontario in about 1830, a grandson of William Lundy. The War of 1812's Battle of Lundy's Lane was fought on William Lundy's farm in Niagara, Ontario. We've often wondered if Charles Lundy brought the cannonball to Ohio as an odd souvenir of the war fought on his grandfather's farm.

The cannonball was unearthed in 2003 in our backyard during excavation for construction of an addition to our 1864 house. It appears to have spent much of the past 150 years in the privy pit, which also contained discarded items like broken dishes and bottles ... and two porcelain doll heads dating to the Civil War period.

The cannonball is about 5 inches in diameter and weighs about 15 pounds. It has two one-inch diameter holes directly opposite each other on the seam line. The holes are connected by an open shaft an inch wide that runs all the way through the center of the ball. There are marks visible around each hole that may show remnants of a collar of some sort surrounding at least one hole - and possibly both.

There is a mold seam that runs around the diameter of the apparently cast iron ball. There is also a circular, rough depression equidistant from the seam that we believe is a vent sprue.

There is NO hollow chamber inside the ball, just the inch-wide open shaft that runs clear through the ball. There was a quantity of black powder found inside the shaft when the ball was sent to Perryville Battlefield in Kentucky to be cleaned in 2004. We still have the powder they removed from the shaft and it looks chunky - like freeze-dried black coffee crystals. They tested the powder and it remains volatile.

The photos below show the cannonball as it looked when it was found and after it was cleaned of rust, and also the black powder that was removed from the shaft.

Have you seen another ball like this? Several experts, including some at Gettysburg, have told us the size of the ball pre-dates the American Civil War. While the Lundy's Lane origin theory fits the facts, it's also possible the ball may be related to one of Gen. Anthony Wayne's campaigns since our house is midway and on the original road between the sites of two important 18th century Northwest Territory forts - Fort Washington on the Ohio River (now Cincinnati OH) and Fort Hamilton on the Great Miami River (now Hamilton OH.)

Could it have been a solid cannonball that was later modified to carry black powder? Could it have been a bar shot? Could it have been something other than a cannonball that someone decided to fill with black powder for some reason?

Any ideas you could share would be very much appreciated.

cannon-ball 2003.jpgcannonball-images.gifseam.JPGvent sprue on right.JPGvent sprue.JPGhole with collar.JPG
 

very interesting find, and i love the story , allot of information .
we have a few people here that may be able to help , " thecannonballguy " should be around and have some input i think .
 

Upvote 0
welcome to treasurenet. i'm no expert but it sure looks like a cannonball to me..do you have a metal detector? i'm here in cleremont county and can help you look for other lost treasures...anyway that is a cool find...happy hunting.
OWG>>
 

Upvote 0
welcome to treasurenet. i'm no expert but it sure looks like a cannonball to me..do you have a metal detector? i'm here in cleremont county and can help you look for other lost treasures...anyway that is a cool find...happy hunting.
OWG>>

OhioWhiteGuy would be willing to dig up your yard--for free! :D
 

Upvote 0
When Cannonballguy sees this he'll have the answer. Your photo sure looks like black powder, but are you positive. Working for a ranch in Nevada, I found a powder can on the desert above the Carson River, and over the years water getting into the can had caused the powder to turn solid, no visible granules. I scratched a little out of the can and tested it with a match, and it still burns, although not with the puff of white smoke, more of a sizzle. To test yours, take a couple of granules and test them with a match, and if it's black powder it should still burn with a puff of white smoke.
 

Last edited:
Upvote 0
This is a question that needs to be addressed by The CannonballGuy! Please wait for him to have a chance to view the pictures and make a determination. He will need the exact dimensions of the ball (i.e. diameter) by the use of a calibrated micrometer and the exact weight as well. These will determine what size cannon they were shot from, their intended use and may lead to the exact type cannon!


Frank

BosnMate...Sorry, I was typing while you were posting!
 

Upvote 0
Looks like a neat cannonball It also looks like one of the type that was designed to explode like a grenade that's why the hole filled with gunpowder. Check out the movie Sahara and you will see what i mean.

Great find
 

Upvote 0
This time, there's no need to do weighing & measuring. I can testify with 100%-certainty that this ball is definitely not a cannonball. Absolutely no cannonballs had a tunnel going all the way through the iron body, which this ball clearly has.

Also, the chunky (your description of it) black substance which came from the tunnel is 100%-definitely not gunpowder, despite you having been told it is. Black gunpowder has very tiny grains, like sugar (although it can also be as fine as flour). When blackpowder is exposed to water in the dirt, it congeals into a lumpy paste shape -- not granular.

The chunky black substance which came from your ball's tunnel looks a lot like small charcoal chunks... which I've encountered many times when digging out civil war army camp firepits. Therefore, I suspect some charcoal (or coal-clinkers) was dumped in the privy your ball was found in. Even long-buried charcoal can still be made to burn, at least a bit. But it won't "flash" like gunpowder does.

Speaking of which... there's no useful purpose for packing the open-at-both-ends tunnel in your ball with gunpowder. If you fired it in a cannon, the gunpowder in the 1-inch-wide tunnel would burn instantly upon firing the cannon. What good does that do?

Identifying what your ball actually is:
There is a type of heavy iron ball like yours, with a tunnel going all the way through its solid body. It is an anti-swing ball, used on a lifting-crane's cable just above the hook-end of the cable. (The thick cable goes through the tunnel.) The heavy ball's weight keeps the cable hanging straight down, preventing it from swinging wildly when the wind blows, endangering crane's crew.

I am sorry you were misled by some so-called historical artillery projectile "experts." Since they didn't know that no cannonballs had a tunnel going straight through the ball's solid body, they do not qualify as experts. I guarantee you that you won't find your tunnel-through-it ball in ANY of the reference-books on historical artillery projectiles. (By the way, I wrote a 552-page book on that subject -- please read the "About me" section in my Profile here at TreasureNet .)
 

Upvote 0
Thanks for the input on the crane cable weight, Cannonball Guy - we'll add that to the possibilities.

We're just trying to confirm what it is - we have no intention of trying to sell it or to profit from it somehow. It'd be a lot more exciting if it turned out to be a cannonball instead of a big church bell clapper or a crane gizmo - but whatever it is, we'd just like to try to know for sure, which may never be possible. It's an interesting detective story and it's becoming part of our home's history.

For the record, we took the ball to the post office this afternoon and used the scale in the lobby. It weighs 15 pounds, 9.20 ounces. We measured its circumference and it came out to be 16.125" around the equator and 16.1875" over the poles. Dividing by pi, we come up with a diameter in the range of 5.133" to 5.152" ... hope we calculated that right? The surface is very pitted and corroded and some areas are recessed while others are raised slightly. And the vent sprue is recessed. Is it possible for a cast-iron object to lose weight and a "pants size" to rust and corrosion?

We tried burning a small amount of the powder today. It flashed into very quick flames that put out a big puff of white smoke, like a stage magician's act - see photo below (the camera shutter missed the flame but caught the smoke.)

We really don't think anyone was trying to mislead us with this. Shortly after the ball was unearthed in 2004, it was taken to Perryville, Ky., by one of our village councilmen who is very involved there and respected nationally for his many years of working with Civil War Preservation.

He had a man who works at the battlefield there take care of cleaning the ball (electrolysis) over a period of about 7 to 9 months. This is also the person who removed the powder and saved it for us in a box which he labeled Black Powder and put his name on. It wasn't a commercial transaction. All of this was done for us at no charge and it doesn't seem that anyone had anything to gain by being deceptive about what they found. We're pretty confident in their expertise. Weren't early forms of cannon gunpowder more coarse than later powders?

We've also emailed photos or shown the actual ball to curators in Gettysburg and at West Point and at Lundy's Lane in Canada among other sites. As you may have read in our first post, the man who built our house in 1864 was Charles Lundy, born in Niagara, Ontario, where the Battle of Lundy's Lane was fought during the War of 1812. We thought he might possibly have brought the cannonball with him, although it doesn't sound like a real good idea to carry something like that around :) It may also have had something to do with General Anthony Wayne's army that traveled through here between Fort Washington and Fort Hamilton during the late 1700s.

Everyone who looks at this thinks it's a cannonball that dates to earlier than the Civil War. Several have suggested it may be French in origin. Someone mentioned a "Culverin" French cannon. On this chart, it looks like a Culverin can take a 5 1/4" diameter shot: British Cannonball Sizes
Would it have been possible to take a cannonball that size and create the shaft to use it for some other purpose?

If it's not a cannonball, we don't want to stop trying to find out exactly what it is, until all possibilities are ruled out. As for the powder it contained, maybe someone was horsing around with it and added that before throwing it into the privy. Charles Lundy had 5 or 6 sons living in this house according to the 1870 census and we know that someone threw the ball - and a couple of porcelain doll heads - down there a long time ago!

Here's the photo of a small amount of the powder we burned this afternoon. Hope it will show up OK:
black powder.jpg
 

Upvote 0
We're grateful for any input and aren't disregarding any replies. We want to consider all the possibilities.

PS - We've never seen another ball like ours but we just noticed this July 3, 2013 news story online from Durham SC. This ball is MUCH smaller than ours (so maybe it's technically not a cannonball (?) - but it looks like it has a similar shaft through a solid shot:
19tO9f.AuSt.156.jpg

Durham man finds Civil War cannonball in yard
Published: July 3, 2013
PIeces of a Civil War cannonball after Durham's bomb squad used a small explosive charge to
open the cannonball and break it into multiple pieces. The cannonball was found in Durham by
Michael Jacobs at the beginning of March while he was doing yard work.
DURHAM SHERIFF'S DEPT.
By Kelsey Rupp — [email protected]
DURHAM — When Michael Jacobs tried to sell a Civil War cannonball he unearthed in his backyard to a
Hillsborough antiques dealer, the dealer advised him to contact law enforcement officials right away.
“When I set it down he rolled it over and looked at it and saw the fuse and he got really scared and said he
couldn’t do anything with it as he backed away from it,” Jacobs said.
Jacobs, 47, dug up the cannonball at the beginning of March while he was doing yard work.
“When I originally found it,” said Jacobs, “it didn’t hit me it was a cannon ball. I scraped off the dirt and saw
a metal ball and put it in a pile of scrap metal.”
But after the antique shop owner’s reaction on Monday, he contacted the Durham Sheriff’s Office. At 12:20
p.m., the Durham County’s Hazardous Devices Unit came to Jacob’s house on W. Main Street and confirmed
it was a 6-lb. Confederate cannonball from the Civil War.
It was taken to the county firing range in a containment vessel and destroyed. Officials said it contained
black powder explosives and was fitted with a fuse.
Bennett Place, the historical Durham farmhouse that was the site of the largest troop surrender of the
American Civil War, is located less than 10 minutes away from where Jacobs unearthed the cannonball.
“Very few North Carolinians realize that there were roughly 130,000 soldiers that passed through the Raleigh-
Durham area in April 1865,” said John Guss, Site Manager of Bennett Place. “All kinds of military supplies
and equipment were left or dropped or were being prepared for use in this area before the war ended,” he
said.
Durham’s bomb squad disarmed the cannonball with the shaped charge method, using a small explosive
charge to open the cannonball and break it into multiple pieces. They could not drill or penetrate the
cannonball without the risk of creating a spark or heat and detonating the gunpowder inside, said Deputy
Paul Sherwin, the Public Information Officer of the Durham Sherriff’s Office.
“When you have anything 150 years old or Revolutionary War era, 200 years old, it is like dealing with a wild
animal. You can never tame them,” said Guss.
But some historians argue that there are safe ways to deactivate cannonballs and other war relics without
destroying them.
“I consider the shaped charge method to be destroying archeological evidence,” said Jack Melton, a Civil
War historian and artillery collector.
“It is possible to use a remote drill press to slowly and safely remove the black powder and that way you are
saving history instead of destroying it,” he said. “A cannonball will not detonate if it is just sitting there or if it
falls once; that is a complete misnomer.”
Melton’s method involves submerging the cannonball in water while a remote drill exposes the black powder
to the water, washing it out. Black powder is less powerful than modern gunpowder and harmless once the
cannonball’s fuse is removed. The process does not generate heat because it is underwater and preserves
the cannonball’s shell, Melton said.
Jacobs said the Durham Sherriff’s Department did not return the severed pieces to him after the cannonball
was destroyed.
 

Last edited:
Upvote 0
I'm not convinced what they found was a cannonball, either, and I'm certainly not going to take Durham EOD's word for it. Shouldn't they be the experts on such things, you might ask? Well, yes, one would think they would be the experts. But they've gotten some pretty basic facts about CW shells wrong, so I'd take their opinions on what was found with a grain of salt. Case in point, this article about the same Durham "cannonball". First of all, the Durham EOD suggests (in no uncertain terms) that knocking it with a hammer would detonate the explosive inside. You have to try something really stupid to get them to go off (try to drill it yourself w/o proper equipment, leave it in a fire, etc). Knocking it with a hammer ain't gonna do it, and I would hope the head of Durham Police EOD would have known this. I get that he's trained to use an abundance of caution, especially when dealing with the press. So I could ALMOST forgive him for that. And then there's this gem...
"[Lt. Tony Prignano, the bomb squad’s commander] said 'This one was about six pounds (the powder’s weight).' "
Yeah, um, no. Not at all. So I wouldn't trust this particular "expert" that he didn't just blow up a crane stabilizing ball, LOL.

I'd actually been keeping an eye on this thread, since I live pretty close to Durham and saw that "cannonball" article first. I was pretty sure that neither what you found nor what Durham EOD blew up were, in fact, artillery. But I was curious to see what CBG would have to share, since there's no doubt he really does know his stuff. Crane weight sounds reasonable to me. Anyways, I am curious to hear back from you, CBG, about the smoke test of the powder as well as the Durham "cannonball" article, so I'll be checking back for sure!
 

Upvote 0
i find nothing wrong with the Poster having a idea what it is but wanting to make a 100% ID on the ball.
because as you see , our expert Thecannonballguy ruled out cannon ball , which goes against what the OP was told and is hoping it would be. looking at the posters link about the french cannon you can rule that out , where the diameter is close but not exact and you can try to guess that loss of material due to rust could make up the difference which i am not sure it would, the weight difference shows there is no way , a 5 pound difference would make the ball another inch thicker to get the 19 lbs needed , so at 15 pounds its way to light.
i will admit when i seen the ball with a hole thru it but no cavity to store excess powder for a blast i wondered if maybe it was one of the balls you hear about that had a chain or another ball attached to it like you see on pirate movies , they may be totally fictional i do not know , but i knew if that is what it was CBG would know, he has been finding/researching these things longer then some of us have been around.
i understand also the posters disappointment that this is not a cannonball , because some of the history would be lost and since i used to restore antique structures i know history of a dwelling is a big thing for people.
so now we have ruled out cannon ball we need to look at other options for the poster .
 

Upvote 0
Thanks, mical66, for explaining it very well. We are very interested in any and all ideas on what this ball is and how it could have been used. We can understand that once it's ruled out as a cannonball it may hold little interest for the artillery experts, but this seems like a great site to get input from all kinds of relic hunters and we value everyone's opinion on it!
 

Upvote 0
Thinking about it, if I was 15-18 years old back then and had access to black powder an old crapper pit and a possible fence ball. :blob8:
Just an idea
 

Upvote 0
Thinking about it, if I was 15-18 years old back then and had access to black powder an old crapper pit and a possible fence ball. :blob8:
Just an idea

YES - there's more than one way to tip an outhouse. With a little imagination, the possibilities for this ball are endless....
 

Upvote 0
sorry i have not been able to get back to this post,, been weedeating.
with a ball that size with a hole all the way thru i am thinking it was for either balance or counter balance . since i nor anyone else has a solid ID on it yet iwill start doing some googling and see what i can dig up :)
 

Upvote 0
Gtoast99 wrote:
> I am curious to hear back from you, CBG, about the smoke test of the powder
> as well as the Durham "cannonball" article [...]

Gtoast, the photo of the white smoke had me already planning to reply about the powder. Logic and Chemistry declare that there is NO WAY that "LIVE" (unspoiled) gunpowder could have remained in the open-at-both-ends tunnel in that privy-found ball.

Explanation:
Black gunpowder consists of only three ingredients -- finely-ground charcoal, Sulfur, and Saltpeter (which is Potassium Nitrate). Unlike the first two of the ingredients, Saltpeter dissolves VERY easily dissolves in water. (That is why wetted blackpowder looks like paste.)

VERY important note: Saltpeter is the ingredient that makes the gunpowder capable of exploding. Without saltpeter, a mixture of ground charcoal and Sulfur will burn, but is incapable of causing an explosion or "flash."

This ball was reportedly found underground in an old privy -- which is an outhouse, from the time before indoor toilets. A home's residents would deposit about a gallon of urine (per person) into the privy EVERY DAY, for decades. Thus, whatever material is in the privy is always wet. The urine would saturate the gunpowder in the ball's 1-inch-wide and OPEN-AT-BOTH-ENDS tunnel, dissolving the gunpowder's Saltpeter, which flows out of the gunpowder, thereby ruining the gunpowder.

Sidenote:
An explosive cannonball, filled with gunpowder, has ONE hole in it, which was SEALED shut. If a buried explosive cannonball's fuze-hole seal eventually deteriorates, some water-leakage into the ball can occur -- but the water does not flow back out. The OPEN-AT-BOTH-ENDS (not sealed) tunnel in Mocnoc's ball does allow the water to flow out, taking the dissolved Saltpeter with it, thereby ruining the gunpowder.

For clarity:
The 1"-wide tunnel in Mocnoc's 5"-diameter ball is like a 1-wide, 5"-long piece of pipe. Fill that pipe with gunpowder, WITHOUT plugging both ends of the pipe with a waterproof seal, and bury it out in your yard, leaving it there for decades. Rainwater is going to soak the ground and flow through the pipe, ruining the gunpowder by carrying away the Saltpeter (which is the ingredient that makes the gunpowder capable of exploding.)

So, there seems to be no logical/scientific explanation for how gunpowder in the open-ended tunnel through Mocnoc's privy-buried ball could have remained perfectly unspoiled, still capable of an explosive flash, after decades of being drenched daily with gallons of urine, sitting in the wet privy-muck. (Also, during the decades after the outhouse's structure was removed from atop it, being repeatedly wetted by rainwater soaking down into the ground.) The facts reported to us about this privy-excavated ball do not add up. One of the reported "facts" HAS to be incorrect information. I do not know which one is incorrect. Nor am I going to point a finger at anybody. I am merely explaining why at least ONE of the reported facts HAS to be incorrect information.
 

Upvote 0

Top Member Reactions

Users who are viewing this thread

Latest Discussions

Back
Top