My two cobs

[Bigcypresshunter]

They are very hard to ID Road Dog because they were hand struck and no two cobs are alike. There are many mints and variations and often the dies were deteriorating. Even the experts make mistakes.

 

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[Road Dog]

The second cob I had noted.. Imperio Espanol 1 real 1620 Felipe IV . Not sure if this helps.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

BCH:
The first thing I noted was on the second coin. The upper right panel of the shield shows an "X" with ONLY ONE verticle line--and that reminded me of coins produced in Cartegena, Colombia. Check out the shield in Sedwick's 3rd edition, top left on page 108. I'll give it some more time later.
Don....

I dont have any of Sedwicks books. Could you scan it or take a picture?

 

[Mackaydon]

BCH:
I don't have the eq. to scan, etc. Perhaps others here could scan the referenced coin page for you. The significance of the pic is that it shows the "X" with only one verticle line down the middle of the cross versus several verticle lines through the cross as on most other coins.
Don.......

 

[divewrecks]

Interesting discussion guys.

I do think that reproduction coins have a legitimate place in studying history and our particular area of numismatic interest. I refer to reproductions as “replicas” and reserve the word “fake” only for instances where there was an obvious intent to deceive someone else.

Many folks are just happy to just own one historical piece and enjoy the fantasy of dreaming about immense treasure, galleons, and shipwreck. These same people are probably content with a pictureless cert attesting to their coin’s authenticity. If it really is a reproduction they would rather not know than have their bubble burst. They are not investing as an enthusiast or as an investor. If they are happy, that is the most important thing.

More serious cob coin collecting is a hobby that requires diligent study if one plans to be serious. I think the collector’s goal is to become self reliant on deciding authenticity. To do this requires much study of available reference material and experience looking at (and even better, handling) as many examples as possible. Developing one’s personal reference library is of paramount importance and for me is a joy in itself. I really like to look at pictures of coins and compare them to other coins from the same mint, assayer, and date. This has helped me a lot.

In case anyone is interested my favorite book is “Cobs: Pieces of Eight and Treasure Coins--The Early Spanish American Mints and Their Coinages, 1536-1773” by Sewall Menzel. The book is $125, but I think it is well worth it.

Stan

 

[Mackaydon]

Stan:
I agree; and I offer a panphlet by Menzel for your consideration: "The Potosi Mint Scandal and Great Transition of 1652". I found his analysis of great assistance in researching some of the cobs we found on the Capitana (1654) off Ecuador.
Don........

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Interesting discussion guys.

I do think that reproduction coins have a legitimate place in studying history and our particular area of numismatic interest. I refer to reproductions as “replicas” and reserve the word “fake” only for instances where there was an obvious intent to deceive someone else.

Yes, I agree that reproduction and tourist souvenir replicas are different from fakes and counterfeits. Also period counterfeits are different from modern fakes. Fakes are made for fraudulant purposes and replicas are made for other reasons. Like I said, I am saving pictures of replicas, fakes and counterfeits in my files to help those that are interested in Iding their cobs. Often the same piece will show up somewhere else. What may be a replica when it was made, may turn into a fake later on eBay depending upon how it is presented. Often it is just lack of knowledge in identifying these pieces.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Many folks are just happy to just own one historical piece and enjoy the fantasy of dreaming about immense treasure, galleons, and shipwreck. These same people are probably content with a pictureless cert attesting to their coin’s authenticity. If it really is a reproduction they would rather not know than have their bubble burst. They are not investing as an enthusiast or as an investor. If they are happy, that is the most important thing.

Here is one of many examples where I was able to identify a members cob by comparing it to known replicas in my files. Maybe some people dont want to know and maybe I should hold back this information unless asked. Some members thank me for helping them and others are in denial. I know I would want to know the truth. But I guess thats just me. http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,161374.0.html

 

[divewrecks]

Stan:
I agree; and I offer a panphlet by Menzel for your consideration: "The Potosi Mint Scandal and Great Transition of 1652". I found his analysis of great assistance in researching some of the cobs we found on the Capitana (1654) off Ecuador.
Don........

Don, yes I wanted that one and was going to get it from En Rada Publications (Ernie Richards), but his supply ran out. I would like to get one from you - please PM me the info. I believe most of the information is in his book I referenced, but I would still like the pamplet in my reference library.

For people who are interested in Capitana coins another essential reference is the auction catalog "Ponterio & Associates, Inc.; April 10,1999; La Capitana". This can usually be found without too much trouble for around $30. It too has some great info on the mint scandal and the known counterstamps used to identify debased coins. When I got my catalog I was happy to see that one of my personal coins was pictured in the auction listing.

Stan

 

[divewrecks]

Yes, I agree that reproduction and tourist souvenir replicas are different from fakes and counterfeits. Also period counterfeits are different from modern fakes. Fakes are made for fraudulant purposes and replicas are made for other reasons. Like I said, I am saving pictures of replicas, fakes and counterfeits in my files to help those that are interested in Iding their cobs. Often the same piece will show up somewhere else. What may be a replica when it was made, may turn into a fake later on eBay depending upon how it is presented. Often it is just lack of knowledge in identifying these pieces.

BCH, can you consolidate your info to a web page or document for sharing?

Something similar to the Sedwick "fake" (I prefer "reproduction") page:

http://www.sedwickcoins.com/fake_cobs.htm#list

Like Don, I generally try to assume a coin submitted for discussion is authentic unless there is something fundamentally wrong about the whole design (like a silver colored coin with escudo features). Many pictures posted are not clear enough for meaningful study. I also believe that there was many an authentic coin produced that would appear at first glance today to be a crude imitation. Any expert in this field will admitt to making past mistakes based on initial judgement. If they say they haven't I say that they are lying.

Contemporary reproductions (counterfeits) have been proven to exist, but I doubt this practice was as common as one would have you believe. Being caught in those days would probably mean the death penalty and one has to believe that back then it was much more difficult to make effective dies or to use high quality casting techniques. Since these coins were handled daily in colonial business transactions it would seem that counterfeits would have been kind of difficult to pass off unless of course, they were for export.

Stan

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I believe they found some colonial counterfeits during excavation in St. Augustine when they were thought not to exist. I think they were recognized by the low silver content. If I remember the article I will post it. By far most counterfeits are modern.

The collection of replicas, fakes, and counterfeits is still a work in progress.

 

[divewrecks]

I believe there was a coin said to be a counterfeit (Sedwick) found on a shipwreck, but I don't recall the exact circumstances.

Stan

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Like Don, I generally try to assume a coin submitted for discussion is authentic unless there is something fundamentally wrong about the whole design (like a silver colored coin with escudo features). Many pictures posted are not clear enough for meaningful study. I also believe that there was many an authentic coin produced that would appear at first glance today to be a crude imitation. Any expert in this field will admitt to making past mistakes based on initial judgement. If they say they haven't I say that they are lying.

OK I hear you. I was hoping you could help authenticate because you and Mack are more knowlegable than I about Spanish cobs. I commented on the Nicaragwa cob because it was obvious to me that it was fake. It had too many issues IMO to be a reproduction and I stood by my words. http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,228193.0.html

I havent made a mistake yet but you have convinced me to take a closer look at these cobs posted by Road Dog but Im going to leave my comments as is. 8) I would like to hear Sedwicks opinion on these.

 

[divewrecks]

I havent made a mistake yet but you have convinced me to take a closer look at these cobs posted by Road Dog but Im going to leave my comments as is. 8) I would like to hear Sedwicks opinion on these.

I respect your comments and your opinion. No one person, even the acknowledged experts, can know everything there is to know about cobs. Fortunately, this forum serves to advance our collective knowledge through discussion and debate.

Stan

 

[Mackaydon]

Stan:
I have only my copy of the pamphlet.
I searched and see that neither B and Noble nor Borders carries the pamphlet.
You might try Sedwick.
I did find that the cob shown on the cover of that pamphlet (Marex/Maravilla wreck) sold for $1,547 including buyer's premium. Such is the value for those premium cob coins.
Don....

 

[divewrecks]

Thanks Don. I misunderstood your reference to the pamphlet and thought you meant you were "offering" them for sale. If you run across one in the future let me know.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The more I learn about cobs, the harder it is to spot the fakes. As far as these are concerned, I just cant be sure. The lions are very worn. All I can say is there are no two exactly alike. Thanks for sharing.

 

[silvercop]

i'll stay out of the debate as well and just comment on the cobs....nice. i have enjoyed looking at everyone's finds over the past week. i have been home in bed with a lower back strain/injury. sure helps pass the time...and pain

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

When I first looked at these cobs, I thought I saw issues but now I just dont know. They may be genuine.


I only collect pics of replicas and fakes and nothing I have really matches. The other members here are much more knowlegable than myself.