Musket Ball marks / ID Question

[mangum]

Hello All. I found this musket ball over the weekend. I'm curious about the marks, are they from the rifling of the barrel (I assume)? There are14 marks around the perimeter. There is a sprue visible (not in this pic), I can upload more/better pics tonight if need be. Also- any ideas on the age of this? It was found in a field where I was looking for Native American artifacts. Any help or insight is always appreciated! Thanks & HH!

 

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[TheCannonballGuy]

BosnMate wrote:
> CBG, are you sure the pin fire's shot round balls?

BosnMate, the answer is No. I said in my first reply in this discussion, "I don't know for certain that any Pinfire shotgun cartridges came with a roundball as the "slug." I mentioned it as a possibility, because such a thing very likely did exist... but at this point I have been unable to find documentation of one on the internet. But I haven't given up searching.

As I also mentioned, Mangum's rifling-marked ball can only be the result of firing from a Breechloader shotgun or a Breechloader rifle which fired a ball, such as the Hall rifle. We now know the ball was fired from a .58-caliber (or perhaps .577-caliber) rifled firearm. I'm not currently aware of a .58 Hall rifle ever having existed. But at least we now know more about what caliber of rifled firearm (and ammunition) to search for than we did prior to Mangun's measurement of his fired rifling-marked ball.

 

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[NOLA_Ken]

I have seen small caliber pinfire rounds loaded with a round ball, but nothing this big. Mostly they were .22 cal. as I remember off hand, I think the larger calibers were mainly conical bullets. I doubt that this was part of a pinfire round, but then again, I've not seen everything yet.

Ruling out the Hall rifle by caliber leaves me wondering what it could be. It's very interesting, and I'll keep looking.

 

[skeeterd]

Can we get info on where this was found?

 

[nearihunter]

Best .62 smoothbore barrel for round ball? - Traditional Muzzleloading Forum - Muzzleloader Flintlock Black Powder only they are talking about smoothbore flintlocks. hmmm

 

[nearihunter]

60 cal ball recommendation this is even better. i would have to say that some one was hunting deer with a traditional flint lock. thats my conclusion. they hunt deer like this alot in pennsylvania. where did you find this again?

 

[AaronN322]

 

[AaronN322]

Also, and potentially more applicable:

 

[nearihunter]

if you havent already chec k out my links. that might change your conclusion

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

AaronN322, thank you very much for finding (and posting) an example of what I'd been websearching for -- a pinfire shotgun cartidge with a large-caliber ball as the slug.

Would you happen to know the caliber of the pinfire shotgun cartridge in the photo you posted?

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

This post is just a "sidenote," not intended to divert the discussion. In a reply above, I mentioned that some of our readers are unfamiliar with terms like rifling-grooves (which are inside a gunbarrel), caliber, bore-diameter, etc. I tried to explain those terms in that reply. When it comes to "explaining," there's a very old saying that "a picture is worth a thousand words." I'll modernize it by saying "a video is worth 10,000 words." So, for the folks here who don't know much about rifling-grooves and etc, here's an explanatory video. If you don't care anything about cannonballs, skip ahead to the 5-minutes-30-seconds point in the 9-min-51-sec video.

 

[mangum]

Can we get info on where this was found?

Western NC, Iredell County

 

[AaronN322]

AaronN322, thank you very much for finding (and posting) an example of what I'd been websearching for -- a pinfire shotgun cartidge with a large-caliber ball as the slug.

Would you happen to know the caliber of the pinfire shotgun cartridge in the photo you posted?

It is a 16g shell, and the ball, at the top of the case is .66, but it is probably a little wider than that under the case so it is around .70 I would guess.

 

[BosnMate]

AaronN322, thank you very much for finding (and posting) an example of what I'd been websearching for -- a pinfire shotgun cartidge with a large-caliber ball as the slug.

Would you happen to know the caliber of the pinfire shotgun cartridge in the photo you posted?

Trouble is shotguns are smooth bored. Where would the ball get the rifling marks?

 

[skeeterd]

Trouble is shotguns are smooth bored. Where would the ball get the rifling marks?

I have heard of rifled shotguns before, but only with modern guns. This is turning into a very informative thread!

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Update: I've been doing additional research, on two subjects.

First:
I've found that the earliest rifled-bore shotgun was the "Paradox" shotgun, whose earliest production was in 1885. That seems rather late to be using a roundball as the slug.

Second:
In a previous reply in this discussion, I suggested that Mangum's fired-ball-with-rifling was from a shotgun because having already excluded a Hall rifle, a shotgun was the only large-bore breechloader I could think of that fired a roundball. Until doing this research, I was unaware that there might be a pinfire breechloading Rifle which could have fired it. My research has turned up a "possible" candidate which is approximately the correct caliber. It is a (French) LeFaucheux Model-1854 Pinfire Rifle, of 15mm caliber (which translates to .59-caliber). Unfortunately I cannot find any information telling the number of rifling-grooves in its bore... so, it is just a "possibility," not a definitive answer to the mystery of Mangum's fired rifling-marked lead ball. PINFIRE RIFLE. - Garth's Auctions

 

[nearihunter]

Is everybody forgetting that the ball has ramrod marks!?!?!! I still think my links are most suitable

 

[Digs68]

I'm trying to understand why you folks think it has to have been from a breech loaded rifle? There were tons of muzzle-loaded 58 caliber rifles around. I know they most commonly fired conical bullets, but I'm sure the round ball was used. Also, is there a chance this bullet isn't that old and its from a target or hunting muzzle-loading rifle? Just wondering if we're making this a lot harder than necessary?

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Digs, the breeechloader idea came from the very deep rifling marks on the ball. Ramming a ball that fit that tight would be quite a chore, but, it is possible. At this point I'm inclined to think it may have been a pistol ball simply because I'd expect a more pronounced deformity from the ramrod if it had been rammed all the way down a long rifle barrel. Also as far as the age goes, the patina indicates that it isn't likely to be a modern ball.

 

[nearihunter]

Nola do you shoot black powder? I do and the ball doesnt deform much at all just leaves a flat mark or a ring or something of rhat nature. The marks are from a ramrod. And the ball is rammed down with a patch with not much work at all. Asuming the bore is clean. When the round is fired off the bullet exppands and takes to the rifling. Causing the marks at that time. NOT WHEN IT IS RAMMED DOWN. This was almost definatly fired from one of these rifles i left the second link on previously on this thread.

 

[nearihunter]

Rifling marks i mean. They are not from being rammed down the bore. Its when its fired and the round expands is when the rifling marks are made