Moving sand in TX

[daylorb]

Newbie here - I've got an interesting project going on in TX and thought I might be able to get some advice.

A catastrophic flood in our area trashed our property, and deposited mountains of sand in our lake. We've done all sorts of things to help move it around, one of them being deploying my years of watching every episode of Gold Rush.

The lake in front of our place is roughly a foot deep. My goal is to clear out sand in a channel that is 2-3' deep in order to be able to get a boat in and out. I only need to get a fishing boat in/out, it draws about 18", but a couple extra inches wouldn't hurt. I can either move the sand out of the lake, or spray it off to side/distribute it. In theory I could also blast it to move it.

As a test - I got myself a 3" Tomahawk pump: https://tomahawk-power.com/products/3-gas-water-pump. Sure enough I can move some sand - I've spent a couple full days in the water and I've been able to cut a 2-3' channel about 60' long and 10' wide. The problem is the pump housing is aluminum, and even though it is sand, I still get some gravel in it. I've ruptured the pump housing twice now, and I've been using the strainer on the intake hose.

I'd like to move up to something more industrial-strength, preferably that will move more sand. I also wouldn't mind something that floats - I'm currently setting this pump on either the shore, the dock, or a jon boat. Clearly I don't need a sluice box...

Is the answer to get something like a Keene 5" configured with no sluice, but an output hose? Or am I using the right gear - just need something more heavy duty with a cast-iron pump housing? Something like this allows for larger solids: https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200585488_200585488

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

 

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[okbasspro]

A dredge pump will not pump sand it will destroy it in seconds. You need a nozzle hose jet and the biggest pump you can afford. Run it like a dredge without the sluice. If you’re on the Llano a sluice wouldn’t be a bad idea. This little nugget came from Longs fish and dig.

 

[N-Lionberger]

I vortxrex system would clear that **** right quick

 

[daylorb]

I should have been more clear - when I'm using that little Tomahawk, I'm getting 90% water, 10% sand. I don't expect to pump sand only. The thought was a 5", stronger pump, floating would run more material and not break as often...

 

[okbasspro]

I should have been more clear - when I'm using that little Tomahawk, I'm getting 90% water, 10% sand. I don't expect to pump sand only. The thought was a 5", stronger pump, floating would run more material and not break as often...

Will destroy a dredge pump

 

[daylorb]

Is this the voretex? Watched the videos - it would certainly do the job... looks pricey.... https://www.ashtead-technology.com/images/products/Vortex-4”-Tornado-Dredge-Pump.pdf

 

[Reed Lukens]

Watch this, it will give you some ideas, then I have other movies for building pump platforms. You need a 4" power jet that you can attach hoses to both sides. You can run the discharge hose as far as you want. Personally, if you're happy with your current pump, you can float the intake inside of a screened bucket that will keep it from sucking up the sand.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2hp0fzLzZBs

here's the powerjet that will fit your 3" pump. The sand is pushed thru the 4" hose with your pump hooked up to the 3" jet built into the side of it.
4" Power Jet with 3" Jet Log: Keene Engineering Online

 

[brianc053]

daylorb, it's not about the pump - it's about the path that the sand/water slurry takes through your system.
Your posts seem to imply that you want 90% water + 10% sand to pass through your pump. The folks here are saying that you should NOT do this with ANY pump.
Instead, people like Reed and N-Lionberger are suggesting that you use a vortex dredge or a suction nozzle setup to move the sand.

Here is a picture of how a suction nozzle works:

(image courtesy of https://www.goldrushtradingpost.com/how_does_a_gold_dredge_work_)

Follow the arrows - does that make sense? The pump sucks 100% clear water in - it has to be in a nice clear section of water.

The sand would flow up through the suction nozzle and (in a gold dredge) into the header box, but in your case you'd just put the hose that would normally go into the header box in whatever spot you want the sand to end up.

- Brian

 

[daylorb]

daylorb, it's not about the pump - it's about the path that the sand/water slurry takes through your system.
Your posts seem to imply that you want 90% water + 10% sand to pass through your pump. The folks here are saying that you should NOT do this with ANY pump.
Instead, people like Reed and N-Lionberger are suggesting that you use a vortex dredge or a suction nozzle setup to move the sand.

Here is a picture of how a suction nozzle works:
View attachment 1803139
(image courtesy of https://www.goldrushtradingpost.com/how_does_a_gold_dredge_work_)

Follow the arrows - does that make sense? The pump sucks 100% clear water in - it has to be in a nice clear section of water.

The sand would flow up through the suction nozzle and (in a gold dredge) into the header box, but in your case you'd just put the hose that would normally go into the header box in whatever spot you want the sand to end up.

- Brian

Ahhh.... ok I see what you mean now. Interesting - when I first contacted Tomahawk they told me the pump was designed to push sand directly through it, just use the strainer so nothing bigger than 3/8" comes through...

Ok - headed to the drawing board to put one of these together. Thank you for the explanation.

I assume stronger pump/more GPM = more flow.... so getting something more industrial strength will help the process.

 

[Digg Mo]

You need to check this post by Garren. The mail box that he designed moved an amazing amount of sand and this type of mail box just might fit your need for removing a lot of sand.
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/shipwrecks/378545-cheap-down-dirty-mailbox.html

 

[Digg Mo]

You need to check this post by Garren. The mail box that he designed moved an amazing amount of sand and this type of mail box just might fit your needs. Just click http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/shipwrecks/378545-cheap-down-dirty-mailbox.html

 

[daylorb]

Watch this, it will give you some ideas, then I have other movies for building pump platforms. You need a 4" power jet that you can attach hoses to both sides. You can run the discharge hose as far as you want. Personally, if you're happy with your current pump, you can float the intake inside of a screened bucket that will keep it from sucking up the sand.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2hp0fzLzZBs

here's the powerjet that will fit your 3" pump. The sand is pushed thru the 4" hose with your pump hooked up to the 3" jet built into the side of it.
4" Power Jet with 3" Jet Log: Keene Engineering Online

Ok - this is all starting to add up. Thank you. I did a drawing - I think this makes sense? I have the pump, the 3" hoses, strainer, etc. I believe I'd need the nozzle, jet, 4" hoses.

Any idea if there a max length of hose A in my drawing where this is any loss in suction? This will be used in a max depth of 3' of water.

Any idea on max length or head of the discharge?

Again - thanks for all the feedback.

 

[daylorb]

You need to check this post by Garren. The mail box that he designed moved an amazing amount of sand and this type of mail box just might fit your needs. Just click http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/shipwrecks/378545-cheap-down-dirty-mailbox.html

Wowsa... that is interesting. I have a 115 yammy on my fishing boat, that could work, will give it a good read. If nothing else - looks like fun to crank that up and watch it blast away!

 

[daylorb]

You need to check this post by Garren. The mail box that he designed moved an amazing amount of sand and this type of mail box just might fit your needs. Just click http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/shipwrecks/378545-cheap-down-dirty-mailbox.html

Thanks for posting. I read through it all - that definitely could work pretty well. It sounds like the engine itself was overkill - and it was being run at pretty low speeds. I'm tempted to buy something like a small aluminum boat w 25-50hp max, convert it into a full time mailbox/vortex craft rather than risk the possibility of messing up my fishing engine. I've got the rabbit ears, could easily run a line to cleaner water/etc. and rig up a bilge pump so may not be too risky....

Seems like 25hp at 1/4-1/2 throttle would generate the type of power the 70hp was getting just above idle. Prop size could be an issue of course. Gives me something to think about. I like the idea of just taking an aluminum permanently rigging up that vortex setup and mailbox - and I'd have a pretty legit sand blasting machine...

 

[daylorb]

Doing some more research, it looks like I may need to go the suction nozzle route rather than the power jet. Saw this:

"Which system is better - a power jet or a suction nozzle?

The answer is that they each have advantages and disadvantages. The advantage of the power jet is that the operator of the dredge has to only deal with one hose when he is dredging. The power jet also allows deeper dredging because the power jet will lift material higher than a suction nozzle can push it. The disadvantage of the power jet is that the power jet and supply hose must be kept under water at all times. Therefore they do not work very well when working in shallow water.

The advantage of the suction nozzle system is that you can dredge in very shallow water and walk around with the suction nozzle completely out of the water without effecting the performance of the sluice. The disadvantage is that you have two hoses that the dredge operator must deal with. Generally speaking a dredge designed to work on flotation, with a compressor for underwater dredging, is almost always equipped as a power jet. A dredge that is designed to work with the sluice on a stand, in shallow water, is almost always equipped with a suction nozzle."

I would definitely be working in very shallow water - likely a foot deep in many/most places.

I actually have a 2" pump as well, which I could hook up to the 3/2 Keene, run a 2" for lines C and D, and use the 3" hose I already have.

I'm guessing volume is going to be less though stepping down to the 2" inlet?

 

[N-Lionberger]

This guy runs beach sand through a dredge, has the suction nozzle on a crutch.

This is a vortxrex, you can get similar results using a suction nozzle and a power jet inline. Since you're just trying to get it out of the way and not trying to seperate metals from it you should be able to run a lot more than 10% sand.

 

[N-Lionberger]

Here's a little doodle I made to show what I'm talking about. If the connection at the inlet of the power jet is air tight it can operate above water, the suction nozzle will get the hose primed with material and the power jet(s) act as a booster. Oversize power jets with a quick connect setup where the suction hose clamps up into the jet won't work as well they aren't air tight, the style jet Reed posted is good.

 

[Reed Lukens]

A suction nozzle won't give you the power needed to move anything thru a 4" hose. You just need to keep the suction ends tip underwater when you're starting the pump when using a powerjet. Then you can pump up onto dry land. With your 150gpm 3" pump that you have now it would be best to run a 3" powerjet. Forget the suction nozzle and what you read on it, that's in a different situation. I would float the pump, throw the powerjet down to the bottom underneath it with as short as possible pressure hose running from the pump to the jet, that can sit on the bottom. Then leave the suction hose underwater and run the discharge hose out to where you want it. You're only going a few feet down in the sand, so you're not going to have hardly any lift. So your powerjet can be ran maxed out and you can make a tip for the hose out of 3" muffler pipe. A suction nozzle is cumbersome and not needed being that you have plenty of water.

I would skip the vortxrex because it's a dryland dredge and once again, you're in the water. Dave had his vortxrex down on my claim in 2005 and it's just not needed in your situation.

You will be able to run up to 20' of 3" sticking out in front of the powerjet with enough suction to break fingers. Being it's sand, you will be wotking hard trying to keep up with just a 3" maxed out. You could go 4" but would most likely only be able to run 8 to 10' of hose out front with your current pump.

 

[daylorb]

A suction nozzle won't give you the power needed to move anything thru a 4" hose. You just need to keep the suction ends tip underwater when you're starting the pump when using a powerjet. Then you can pump up onto dry land. With your 150gpm 3" pump that you have now it would be best to run a 3" powerjet. Forget the suction nozzle and what you read on it, that's in a different situation. I would float the pump, throw the powerjet down to the bottom underneath it with as short as possible pressure hose running from the pump to the jet, that can sit on the bottom. Then leave the suction hose underwater and run the discharge hose out to where you want it. You're only going a few feet down in the sand, so you're not going to have hardly any lift. So your powerjet can be ran maxed out and you can make a tip for the hose out of 3" muffler pipe. A suction nozzle is cumbersome and not needed being that you have plenty of water.

I would skip the vortxrex because it's a dryland dredge and once again, you're in the water. Dave had his vortxrex down on my claim in 2005 and it's just not needed in your situation.

You will be able to run up to 20' of 3" sticking out in front of the powerjet with enough suction to break fingers. Being it's sand, you will be wotking hard trying to keep up with just a 3" maxed out. You could go 4" but would most likely only be able to run 8 to 10' of hose out front with your current pump.

Thanks - that is super-helpful. So if I understand you correctly, then I would have a 2" line from pump to powerjet, then a 3" suction line on both sides of the powerjet? It looks like the power jets always have a step down from pressure to suction.

Then I would add a tip to the 3". Basically the original drawing I had with a 3/2 rather than a 4/3?

Thank you all!

 

[Reed Lukens]

If your pump has a 3" outlet, then just run 3" hose to a 3" intake on the jet. The jet reduces the size itself down to less than an inch. If it's Keene, it will be around 7/8" for the 3" or 5/8" for the 2" and either will work.