MK Roberts and The Lost Dutchman Mine Apology

[sdcfia]

That's the great thing about America! You are absolutely free to believe anything you want. Let's see....hhhmmmmm...... do I think that all those people were suckered by Noss or do I believe what they signed sworn affidavits to after Doc was murdered? HHHMMMMMMM I think you aren't giving much credit to the people that actually received some of those bars from Noss. I understand that all that testimony flies in the face of much of what you believe, so its understandable why you don't want it to be true. I completely understand, but I'd rather place my faith in the statements of several people that had first hand knowledge rather than your blanket denial of everything that you don't agree with.

Mike

Thanks for your permission to think for myself. Actually, I didn't need it as I've followed that track all my life - and although it got me in trouble with folks a few times in the 60s, nonetheless it remains a great help in sorting out what is from what people say it is. Confused? Well, your continual rigid support of unverifiable dogma confuses me too - it almost seems like it's your job.

The affidavits. A signed affidavit is actually only evidence that the signer is who he claims to be - in most cases the signature is legally verified. Can we accept that the signer believes what he narrates? In most cases, sure. Does that actually establish the truth? Under many circumstances, a signer's belief may indeed reflect reality. However, in the cases we're discussing - claims of extreme wealth made by a career criminal and accomplished swindler, Milton Noss - well, if it's not a red flag to you Mike, so be it.

Let's look at it this way. If you were approached by Doc Noss, and he put a metal bar in your hands and claimed it was gold and needed your help (and money) to retrieve ten thousand more of them that he accidentally put out of reach - oooops - what would you do? Take his word that it was a gold bar? Do a quick nitric acid scratch test? Pick up the ingot and say to yourself, "Yup, it's the real deal"? Look at the holes drilled in it and assume it had been assayed and was pure gold, just like Doc said? Have a heart-to-heart talk with Doc and jump on board? These guys were ostensibly all honest, intelligent and trusting people. But you see, Mike, smart people are the chumps that swindlers prey on. When easy money is on the line, smart people think they're really smart, having a chance at it, and then their greed tends to blind them. It's human nature - smart people are the easiest to fool.

Now, you're a smart person, Mike. What would you do? Obviously, you would sample the ingot and obtain your own assay ... uh, right? We know that the only extant assays on "Noss gold bars" confirm that they were actually copper bars with a few ounces of gold in them. That's what's so curious about your position - why does a savvy guy continue to support unverified hearsay as the truth?

 

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[gollum]

Thanks for your permission to think for myself. Actually, I didn't need it as I've followed that track all my life - and although it got me in trouble with folks a few times in the 60s, nonetheless it remains a great help in sorting out what is from what people say it is. Confused? Well, your continual rigid support of unverifiable dogma confuses me too - it almost seems like it's your job.

The affidavits. A signed affidavit is actually only evidence that the signer is who he claims to be - in most cases the signature is legally verified. Can we accept that the signer believes what he narrates? In most cases, sure. Does that actually establish the truth? Under many circumstances, a signer's belief may indeed reflect reality. However, in the cases we're discussing - claims of extreme wealth made by a career criminal and accomplished swindler, Milton Noss - well, if it's not a red flag to you Mike, so be it.

Let's look at it this way. If you were approached by Doc Noss, and he put a metal bar in your hands and claimed it was gold and needed your help (and money) to retrieve ten thousand more of them that he accidentally put out of reach - oooops - what would you do? Take his word that it was a gold bar? Do a quick nitric acid scratch test? Pick up the ingot and say to yourself, "Yup, it's the real deal"? Look at the holes drilled in it and assume it had been assayed and was pure gold, just like Doc said? Have a heart-to-heart talk with Doc and jump on board? These guys were ostensibly all honest, intelligent and trusting people. But you see, Mike, smart people are the chumps that swindlers prey on. When easy money is on the line, smart people think they're really smart, having a chance at it, and then their greed tends to blind them. It's human nature - smart people are the easiest to fool.

Now, you're a smart person, Mike. What would you do? Obviously, you would sample the ingot and obtain your own assay ... uh, right? We know that the only extant assays on "Noss gold bars" confirm that they were actually copper bars with a few ounces of gold in them. That's what's so curious about your position - why does a savvy guy continue to support unverified hearsay as the truth?

Actually, you couldn't be further from the truth of the matter. Most of these people that received gold bars from Doc received them in the early 1940s. Plenty of time for them to have found out the bars they got from Doc were fakes or mostly copper. Remember, those affidavits were done in 1949-1950 after Doc was murdered.

You are also not figuring in people like Tony Jolley, who sold ten of them and bought a nice ranch he passed to his son. Thirty ounces of gold does not a nice ranch buy. And yes, its so easy to say that Jolley lied, or the other people were swindled, but the funny thing is....none of these people you claim were swindled said they had been swindled. Even eight years after getting their gold bars, and after Doc was murdered, they NEVER said they had been given anything but gold bars. Bennie Samaniego paid cash for the house he lived in from selling a gold bar that Doc had given him for his help. Its okay, he was probably lying too, right?

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

Actually, you couldn't be further from the truth of the matter. Most of these people that received gold bars from Doc received them in the early 1940s. Plenty of time for them to have found out the bars they got from Doc were fakes or mostly copper. Remember, those affidavits were done in 1949-1950 after Doc was murdered.

You are also not figuring in people like Tony Jolley, who sold ten of them and bought a nice ranch he passed to his son. Thirty ounces of gold does not a nice ranch buy. And yes, its so easy to say that Jolley lied, or the other people were swindled, but the funny thing is....none of these people you claim were swindled said they had been swindled. Even eight years after getting their gold bars, and after Doc was murdered, they NEVER said they had been given anything but gold bars. Bennie Samaniego paid cash for the house he lived in from selling a gold bar that Doc had given him for his help. Its okay, he was probably lying too, right?

Mike

For all we know, those guys died thinking their copper bars were gold, but never tried to cash them in due to the Gold Act restrictions. Ha ha. Did any of these folks ever verify the bars' content, that you know of? I'll change my opinion when I see facts. The gorilla in this room is that, in all those years, the Feds never busted Noss for a Gold Act violation. Why not? Possibly because they knew the bars Doc was toting around only had three ounces of gold in them. Enough to pique their interest, yes, but not enough to act on.

I liked Jolley too. Jolley said he bought a ranch. Did he? Where was it? How much did he pay for it? That's what I mean about facts to back up hearsay. Again, I'll stand corrected when I see proof.

Now, Samaniego may indeed have been compensated for the work he did for Noss and for the stories he told people on Doc's behalf. As I recall, first the bars came from the Caballos Peak, then they came from Victorio peak. So, by definition, we know he was a liar too - or at least a half-time liar. Ha ha.

I'd love to believe in this fairy tale, I really would. For people interested in a very comprehensive telling of the story, I suggest reading The Gold House Book 1, as Mike suggested to me some months ago. I was always suspicious of the Noss story - say, at a 50% level. After reading the book, I now distrust the Noss version at, say, a 90% level. Why in the world the writer, presumably entrenched in the Noss camp, provided so much damaging material is beyond my pay scale, but there it is. Judge for yourself.

 

[UncleMatt]

Thanks Hal,

You know, eating a little crow (to me) does not offset how good it felt when I found out that my distrust had been misplaced. I hate to hear bad things about people that have been good to me. I am especially glad that the bogus military service is a non-issue any more.

Mike

Now you've done it! Crow is sure to show up now asking questions!

 

[gollum]

Now you've done it! Crow is sure to show up now asking questions!

Yeah, he might find a chunk of meat missing from his left shoulder blade.

Mike