✅ SOLVED Military item?

[recondigger]

My buddy and I found this digging an 1800 cellar hole. It's made of brass

Dig until your arm falls off

 

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[ivan salis]

eagle chest plate or cartridge box item maybe

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

The photo shows the disc next to a US half-dollar is about 1.25-inches wide. That is too big to be a button and too small for a belt plate or cartridge-box plate. But it matches the size of some horse-harness rosettes.

I have to say I haven't seen one exactly like it. The design of the eagle-with-shield indicates it is Military, and is from sometime in the 1800s, as it almost perfectly matches the eagle on the back of US coins from that time-period. Since I haven't seen one like it in all my decades of digging and dealing civil war relics, I'd guess that it is pre-civil-war. But I could be incorrect about that, because I do not believe I've seen everything there is to see.

 

[recondigger]

The photo shows the disc next to a US half-dollar is about 1.25-inches wide. That is too big to be a button and too small for a belt plate or cartridge-box plate. But it matches the size of some horse-harness rosettes.

I have to say I haven't seen one exactly like it. The design of the eagle-with-shield indicates it is Military, and is from sometime in the 1800s, as it almost perfectly matches the eagle on the back of US coins from that time-period. Since I haven't seen one like it in all my decades of digging and dealing civil war relics, I'd guess that it is pre-civil-war. But I could be incorrect about that, because I do not believe I've seen everything there is to see.

It has 21 stars and we only had 21 states in 1818 so I'm sure it's pre civil war I just can't figure out what it is. It's to big for a button to small for breast plate. I think you are right it's the average size of a rosette

Dig until your arm falls off

 

[CoilyGirl]

Very nice find!

 

[kuger]

That is the center disc of a stamped brass tongue,part of a tongue and wreath buckle....and a fairly rare one at that!!There is a Powder flask with same eagle on it as well.Very cool mid 19th Century find!!!Purely speculation,but I have no reason to beleive it had any military affiliation.That era was very patriotic and we see the majestic(sometimes less than )eagle on many items,especially this style buckle

Note in your second picture,on the right hand side....see where the bridge would have attached?I have several photos of other examples but am not on my computer.Again,very nice find.If you ever want to depart with it let me know!

 

[recondigger]

That is the center disc of a stamped brass tongue,part of a tongue and wreath buckle....and a fairly rare one at that!!There is a Powder flask with same eagle on it as well.Very cool mid 19th Century find!!!Purely speculation,but I have no reason to beleive it had any military affiliation.That era was very patriotic and we see the majestic(sometimes less than )eagle on many items,especially this style buckle

Note in your second picture,on the right hand side....see where the bridge would have attached?I have several photos of other examples but am not on my computer.Again,very nice find.If you ever want to depart with it let me know!

<img src="http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=817650"/>

Awesome thank you very much! I had my buddy look at it better and your are dead on! I'll ask him if he wants to part with it.

Dig until your arm falls off

 

[vpnavy]

Nice finds recondigger.

 

[CC Hunter]

Kuger is spot on with the identification of your find.

This is indeed the center piece from a Tongue & Wreath style stamped brass belt buckle dating from the 1850's. There are a number of different tongue motif designs, evidently made by the same manufacturer, as these all fit the large size stamped wreath. This particular buckle design, with the drooped wing eagle, is sometimes mistakenly associated with Mississippi or the Southern Confederacy. However, the fact that most recovered examples have been found predominately in Pre-Civil War sites, and mostly in areas other than the Southern United States, certainly refutes those theories.

The more commonly seen eagle design on the large stamped brass Tongue & Wreath buckles, is the style with the eagle featuring the wings swept upward. Both of the buckles shown here, accept the very same outer wreath portion.

CC Hunter

 

[CC Hunter]

Regarding any assumption that belt buckles of the 19th Century featuring an eagle design, may be attributed to military origin simply because of a "military look", we must keep in mind the fact that in many cases with this style of buckle, they were actually commercially available to the public during the 1850's. These buckles certainly could have been purchased by individuals that were involved in military service, and even worn by many militia groups. On occasion these eagle Tongue & Wreath buckles were even carried into use during the American Civil War in the 1860's. By the 1870's, the peak of popularity had subsided, and rarely are these stamped brass Tongue & Wreath buckles found in context with finds at sites dating after the war. The actual origin though, and distribution of these buckles, was principally through retail clothing stores in major cities.

CC Hunter

 

[kuger]

CC,wasnt one of this buckle found in a Dragoon Camp as well as the other ones we know of from Pre C.W. sites?

 

[CC Hunter]

Kuger,

I've seen a few examples posted online over the years, in addition to possibly one or two from Civil War sites. If my memory serves right, I've seen this same style in a book on excavated Civil War relics, and it may have been Howard Crouch's book. Years ago I talked personally with Howard Crouch about these stamped brass Tongue & Wreath buckles, and how few were referenced in any of the books at that time.

The majority of these I have seen (and there are very few of this design), have been in context with 1850's civilian sites during the Western Expansion. I'm not familiar with an example that was found in connection with a Dragoon Camp. If you are referring to the 1850's Kansas military sites, or Johnston's camps in Wyoming and Utah, these actually produced several stamped brass Tongue & Wreath buckle parts, yet they were of other varieties rather than this style of drooped wing eagle.

CC Hunter

 

[kuger]

Yes,one is in Crouch's book,and two have come from here locally.I was referring to KC Steves,and I did remember right,it was Steve.Also I am very well aware of all of the Tongue and wreaths from the Johnston's camps in Wyo and Utah....many that have never been "Posted"

 

[CC Hunter]

Kuger,

The one that Steve found is different, and even rarer than this one here!

Check your archives.

On that particular buckle, the shield is to the side of the eagle, and held in the beak.

CC Hunter

 

[CC Hunter]

Here is the actual buckle you refer to:




CC Hunter

 

[CC Hunter]

Also, these do not fit the same large plain wreaths (notice no overlap).

CC Hunter

 

[CC Hunter]

The wreath above is a mismatched marriage of the common reeded edge plain belt loop variant, that usually is seen with the Bezel Edge 5-point Star, Rope Border Flipped Eagle, or common Rope Border Eagle. The rare Drooped Wing Eagle variant with the shield in beak, is a smaller diameter center piece and wreath, than the large stamped buckles, such as we are comparing for the find at the beginning of this thread.

All these buckles have the same 1 5/8" inside measurement belt loops, to accept the same size belt (morocco leather, varnished leather, rubber, woven cloth, or elastic cloth, to name a few).


CC Hunter

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

CC Hunter and Kuger, thank you for all the information you posted. It explains why I'd never seen a DISC exactly like that one from a civil war military site -- so the only thing I could think of was a pre-civil-war rosette. Micro-examination of magnified versions of finder Recondigger's photos shows the disc's rim is missing at the left side of the eagle, because it is broken off from the buckle's rectangular keeper. Thanks for solving the mystery.

 

[recondigger]

Thank you guys for all the info on this piece. How rare is this style of buckle?

Dig until your arm falls off

 

[kuger]

Right as usual CC!!!My memeory is worse off than I thought.Unfortunatly all of my archives are on thumb drives,and until I get a new computer I cant access them.....or many of my old pictures!Thanks my friend

Recon...I personally know of only a handful of examples 4-5(thats not saying a whole lot,these are owned by the few collectors I know),two of which are only the center disc like this one.