Metallurgic Techniques

[frogling]

Hi, Bill, Lamar and Ki

Bill, thanks for throwing in! So the obvious question is, if you are sure casting wasn't used at any point in the process (more to say about this in a minute), then what technique do you think was employed to make these coins?

If the coins were not poured, a die had to be made. Can you propose some way to make a die without casting? What is this process? I would like to hear more.

Ki, what are the references to the sledge you described? Can you cite your sources?

Lamar, may I ask your opinion? Does the Mullins family mention of a hinged "type" for making the coins preclude the striking method? I don't know how a coin could be "struck" from a hinged type without damaging the hinges, but maybe I lack in imagination or experience with coin striking.

We might also need to keep in mind the interest of the parties involved in keeping their techniques close to their chests. These were individuals, after all, who preferred to produce counterfeit rather than disclose the source of their silver. There might be a bit of self-protective disinformation in some of these accounts. I would tend to trust the descriptions of the most disinterested parties, in the absence of examining the actual coins.

Anyone else care to chime in?

Best,

Pam

 

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[-Ki-]

The way i tend to look at how Swift and Montgomery could have coined their metal is simple. Put yourself in there shoes, your out in the wilderness, the only previsions brought with you are on pack animals, as well as your mining equipment. I lean towards this, the furnaces were used to cast the pigs and ingots, this was at the furnace rockhouse. From here one could simply carry and reheat the metal else where, this could be done at the rockhouse where the men lived, its was located 100yards above the furnace rockhouse.
Now comes the big question of how the coins where made. Could Montgomery have reheated the metal and poured in the dies he had, or could the metal be soft enough to just be heated and put between two dies and struck with a hammer? No Swift coins have yet to be proven found, so this question could be never answered until such time.
Here are a few good links......
SilverMine - http://home.eckerd.edu/~oberhot/printmelle.htm
Hammer struck - http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinIntros/BritishDenominations2.html
Casting - http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinIntros/Casting.intro.html

The date on Swifts made crowns would of been from 1752-53, Swift and Montgomery had bought ships together, but why? They could have been shipping the coins and silver back over seas. I know that most of the french crowns in circulation in the colonial time was sent back overseas at certain times, but still this idea still raises many questions.
Well gotta run, I'm burning daylight........ -Ki-

 

[swiftfan]

I have to agree with ki on this one. I think they would have crude methods at best in which to make their coins. The pigs probably would have been reheated elsewhere in the coining process. They possibly made a set of molds, like bullet molds to male enough coins for the winter, and the provisions for the next years journey. The pigs would have been taken elsewhere for safekeeping till they could have been converted. (the great cave?) that would explain why Swift looked after blindness rook his eyes for the lost silver. Just a thought..
-swiftfan-

 

[Curtis]

Hi All,
Have to put my two cents in……I highly respect everyone’s input, view and opinion and I love this even when we disagree ……. its sharing info…… I just learned a lot about the casting stuff… Thank you guys/gals.
First …the version of the legend I have indicated Swift made English Crowns…how about yours? The government arrested him for counterfeiting…had to be English …….they had no jurisdiction over the French coinage/counterfeiting. Trade coins with serrated edges are a great idea and no doubt used…but the coins I saw English and French did not have serrations. So, one step of the striking process that would create friction and made striking difficult eliminated. I know most of you have heard of the Spangle, Sprinkle, and other (real) counterfeit coins which some of them were very crude but others quite good. All were made using the striking methodology. A good friend of mine (now deceased who got me into spending years looking for the Swift Mines) found a set of dies in the 1970s near the Grayson reservoir. They were dies (not molds) of English crowns and were loaned to the U of K. As far as I know they were never returned…could still be on a shelf there? Oh, the UK people did an analysis of the material they were wrapped in….Bear tallow/fat covered and the wrapping was a bear skin….time period was possibly 1750 to 1770.
This was when I first started and have lost a topo that showed where he found the dies, a carved DAS with 1763(Swifts wife’s name was Desiree Ann Swift), two monument rocks, the furnace, Buffalo rock, Light house, haystack rock etc. (I helped him out by identifying an area of 40 acres that fit the description of where they kept the horses. The 40 acres was not in a hollow by the way, but up on top of a cliffy area surrounded by rivers and creeks with a very narrow opening.
I just recently found the place where they had buried four kegs of coins (someone got there before me though) ---most Swift hunters are way out of their league…these guys were pure genius in how they hid them... Almost in plain sight! Within two miles of this location I found Spanish words carved in a rock, another large rock (turtle shaped with a map on it that may be Spanish or Indian. So the Swift party may have found old Spanish workings or the Shawnee may have shown them where some of their forefathers were in slaved to work for the Spanish. Three were a small cache of Spanish coins dating in the 1600s found within four miles of this area. Good news is I can show you the places he marked…I think he found the general location of the upper mines. I can show you four of them….all but one are buried….and unlike others hear I can provide the ore samples! Anyone got the funds to invest to start mining? I have a geologist ready to help with the claim. I teach college (CAD) and so this type of funding is out of my ball park.
Sorry for getting off topic there. But they definitely struck the coins. They didn’t have to have all the equipment to “mill” them. An apparatus with a cast iron frame could have been placed in pieces on multiple mule loads, reassembled, used and then of course hidden…why take it back when you intended to return and make more coins? I am not a coin person, couldn’t make the coin die, but I could make a coin stamping rig that just needed a 5 lbs. sledge to operate it and two men. Make at least 30 coins an hour….all done on technology older than Swift. One station would cut the coins to size, the next actually imprint them. The two stations would be centered and then the blank quickly rotated, If the slugs were hot maybe even more per hour.

As to the Sol Mullins thing, has anyone seen one of those? Let’s look at the dates…one resource says the people that they are the descendants of may have been Portuguese and others…..well the Portuguese were very good at making coins too…could be they have had a guy that used to work in the mint in Lisbon. …Swift didn’t have a corner on the market….haha

 

[swiftfan]

I think I have heard of the area you are talking about, though I have never been there. I wish I could invest in some sample research. maybe you could get a geologist to examine the strata to see what kind of rocks and how they lay. I have always thought that minerals, metals and the like could be found around faults. Maybe examining the eddys of the nearby streams would yield a better idea of the makeup of the surrounding area.

In the journals, it mentions the party dividing. It could be that you have found is the area of the upper workings. now, with the finding of the dies you mentioned, is it possible in your opinion that there were two or more sets, each set traveling to each of the mines? I wonder what it would take to get the die set back? hmm.. Are there any pictures of these? I would love to see them.

Well anyway the age old question would still exist. What if you found one of the mines? What would you do? Me, I would extract some ore, get it sampled, and then proceed to refine a small amount for myself as a "archaeological experiment" to see if it possible to do what they supposed to have done in the wilderness. Next, get all the necessary paperwork to get rights as an archaeological site. That, in some way would hopefully protect that area from future damage from the modern world around it, including the curious public. Because if word gets out at all, it would spread like wildfire. Not to mention the landowner. If it is private land, you would stand a better chance of getting your goal accomplished, than having to deal with some sort of government or business. But remember to get permission first! Written would be best.

Wish I could Help you there, but I'm here with all of the rest of us to help you along, so if you need anything, let us know, and good luck!

Matt James
-swiftfan-

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
Everyone is proceeding with the discussion under the assumption that the silver mines in question are more than a fanciful treasure tale. Due to extensive geological explorations of the entire East Coast, in search of coal deposits, there has yet to turn up even the merest hint of a silver deposit.

Unlike gold, silver breaks down readily into it's component parts, such as silver oxides, silver chlorates, silver halides and silver nitrates. Knowing this we can then easily discern from the broken down silver remnants the general vicinity of the lode in question. As yet, no viable evidence has been uncovered which would lead one to think that a sizable silver deposit lies in wait for the lucky discoverer.

Taking the facts into consideration, one can assume that the tales of Johnathan Swift's mines are wholly false and without merit, or that Johnathan Swift stumbled upon a rather large hidden silver cache, which he then exploited. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that Swift would have extracted the silver, then smelted it, processed it and then converted it into coinage and ingots.

The labor involved in such a venture would have been daunting for a small operation and the fact remains that no counterfeit silver coins or silver ingots have ever been attributed as to being from Johnathan Swift's hand lends credence to this testament. Perhaps the reason why no counterfeit coins have surfaced is because the coins were not counterfeited to begin with, rather they were legitimately produced coins and hidden by a party as yet unknown.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Curtis]

Oh Lamar,
Always the skeptic! Let’s make a deal...I will show you 5 silver mines in Kentucky and four in Ohio that I have found. I know the location of three more in Ohio. You put up the money to buy the land on each one at a time and develop it and pay me 10 percent of the net! Let’s start with the first one. We (sorry YOU) can probably buy the land in Ky for $100,000 (10 acres that is all that it would take on one of the mines..the best one) You of course will also have to front the permits with the EPA and Army Corp of Engineers...environmental impact study...etc ect. The opening of the mine is going to be really easy its only about 6 feet deep start it goes at least 100 yards and is 40 yards wide. I don't know how deep the vein is as I haven't made the deal with the farmer who is a great guy...we may be able to lease the mineral rights and get around the 100K. If you are not interested then maybe you know someone who is? Oh the best part I would require you to write a nice long description of just how much silver there is in KY and post it here …when we are done that is. You see I have in my possession something I would have told anyone was crazy until I used it. I can find silver and gold ores at long distances in small or large amounts. I found a small gold nugget the size of a match head at 1/8 mile away, and have a reference for you to check out from an invitation I accepted right here on the forum …went down about 4 hours drive from my house to check out some gold coins…(didn’t find the coins…we think they were retrieved later) but found 5 gold deposits on the guys property that were placer gold dust deposits. I originally bought this thing (very expensive --not a metal detector or GPR, nor a dowser…brand new technology the inventor is a genius and great guy!) to confirm my research and foot work as to where the mines were…..since then I have been having the time of my life! It will cut your search time down from days and weeks down to minutes and hours! Just to get Swiftsearchers blood pumping….if he can get me within ½ mile of the Great Cave I can find it…if it has silver in it. Of course we can always to a grid of ¼ to ½ mile searches. I can even give you an approximation on depth with it. And if that is a vault I can tell you if there is silver or gold in it before you open it.
Ah, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof (someone’s byline on the forums here)…and you found the guy who has it! Anyone want to see it in action…let’s talk! PM me about what you have been looking for and I’ll try to get with you and collapse the time frames it takes! I’ll sign a nondisclosure form for you too! I will require a percentage of course but it won’t break you up, depends on how good your site is and how far from me it is…I don’t mind your helping with the travel expenses if it’s more than 2 hours away. Will even consider some charity work if it’s for the right cause. Right now I am set up for gold, silver, aluminum and copper…… no it won’t find them all at one time. It uses a computer program to lad each element so you only find that one you are looking for!

 

[Curtis]

Swiftfan,

Yes they may have had several mines in both directions…most journals indicate that. I believe Boomer (great source of information and wisdom) stated that he thinks this is true also. I have a geologist that is just chomping at the bit to go look at this stuff she teaches at the same college as I do. She mentioned just as you did that if there are faults around there is a good chance that there is silver and gold. Well, she gets out her handy dandy fault charts and sure enough there is one that goes right thur this area. I am going to give part of it away just for LAMAR, my area is very close to where they found KIMBERLITE pipe. Interesting stuff here, found Indian stair steps, ....real carved foot placements! Found where they toppled over the furnace, and where they may have stayed…which is within 200 yards of where my friend found the dies…and was marked on his topo map. The dies…This happened back in the early to mid 1970s and it was what he told me in person….but I have no idea of who to contact to try to find out any record of who had the dies, where they may be or even if they were returned to his family. I imagine he had plenty of pictures but he didn’t bring them into work to show us. He liked me and my buddy Jay and would talk to us and tell us where to go to find things he had found…no Lamar he wasn’t carving and making stuff to let us find…the Indian stair steps were not on his map, nor was the map that leads to the silver mines! Nor was the Spanish writing carved into a rock. A good Christian guy PMed me last year and I went and found the Turkey tracks he said were there. They are is about 3-4 miles upstream from the rest of the stuff mentioned above. See, if we keep on sharing it works, I am not saying anyone should give it all up but the things that are not major finds we can reveal to one another to help them build their case…that’s why I posted about the fallen natural bridges…I had researched and found where there was suppose to have been one in the area I am looking…it wasn’t there…it had fallen down!

Swiftfan, don’t let the dream crushers bother you, they are really an asset to us here….they keep us honest and make us prove what we say…that is what critical thinking skills are all about! I enjoy posting and reading these great finds you all are documenting….when we put our collective minds together we each help with ideas, finds, suggestions, etc that will lead someone to the exact proof they need to show everyone just how Swift did it. I do not claim that the mines I have found are Swifts, but they are silver mines and as I search this fall and winter I may come across some compelling evidence so as to be able to make that claim….but like in a lot of other places a lot of things fit. How many monument rocks in a river/creek are there that are the heights he mentions? Not as many as you would think …remember the creek/river has to flow in the right direction too! Not many of those with two monument rocks right where he says coupled with the other things I mentioned. We hear things too that are not far from this like there is a rock in the Grayson Reservoir that has all of the party’s names carved on it and dates! And the non proven legend that when they were building the reservoir they found a good sized vein of silver…not sure about that one…not as far as I know documented.
Oh and about the metal processes, not far from the reservoir there is a hollow that a friend was telling me about years ago that I have never checked out…he said there was a chimney that laid beside a rock house that went up along the cliff face that would let smoke out in small amounts like to disperse it! he said is it looked to be incredibly old! Hmmmm
Now to share a hint on a great idea I have….anyone out there that has access to a spectrometer? If you do let me know by PM. We can collect water samples and…….. that is the hint guess the rest! Will share the rest by PM.

 

[-Ki-]

Curtis you couldn't have said that better....... I agree 100%

Also the Swift legend is real..... Its just the countless copying and recopying of the Swift journal tends to throw out the actual facts.

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
Ok, now let me see if I am perfectly clear on this. It can be proven to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that silver deposits exist in Kentucky and Ohio, yet I will need to front some 100,000$ (most likely in cash, no doubt) in order for it to be proven to me Hmmmmm...
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Curtis]

Now, now, don’t get confused I mean that’s what it will cost to purchase the property IF he will sell. I stressed you would have to buy it because i sure don't have the funds. Let’s just say the cheapest way to get to it maybe to buy the mineral rights ....like i said haven't told him yet that it’s there. I had to do the research to make sure that even though he owns the property he still owns the mineral rights and it looks like none has ever sold them from the property. You will have to give me a little time to get back down there and talk to him about letting you dig. We will have to blindfold you (and whoever you bring) when we get within 5 miles of the place....how would that be? The place in KY is near Grayson Reservoir, which is about 2.5 hours from where I live near Cincinnati. I just have to protect the location of place in case you would try to go around me and make a deal for it. When would you like to go?

Again you will have to agree to write a positive post here after you have the samples YOU take with you analyzed and show it silver ore....if it doesn't you don't have to write the post can I get anymore fair than that?

 

[Curtis]

Sorry for the side tracking from the topic.... here is a photo of a Coin Press circa Swifts time...a GEARED design you don't even have to use a hammer, slow, but they had all the time they needed...I can just see Munday talking to Montgomery...."yes sir, you have designed a mighty nice machine here, I kind of enjoy working with it and so do the rest of the guys...no one minds taking a turn....everyone we make is more than three days wages for one man! We are rich, rich I tell you! I'll add the 600 I make today to the 12,000 I already have since arriving 2 weeks ago" Its Swifts turn tomorrow if we can get him out of the mine."

 

[lamar]

Dear Curtis;
Yes, that's a coin press, sure enough, all 6 odd TONS of it, however I am not quite so sure that no one would have minding taking a turn, as you put it. Generally speaking, that type of coin press was worked by a group of 8 to 12 men, working for about 15 minutes after which time another group of men relieved them. Also, the coin press you,ve shown is only one stage of the minting process, my friend. Before coins could be minted, first the material needed to sized on a rolling mill in order that all coins were the same thickness and material density. Next, the blanks needed to have been punched from the milled stock, deburred and polished. Only then were the coins ready to have been struck. In short, it was a slow, tedious process and one which was not well suited, not easily adapted, to a backwoods counterfeiting operation.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[-Ki-]

It was possable to carry such a device in to the wilderness, they had pack animals, some times around 100 in a train. Its possable such a device could have been carried in with two trips. The first journey Swift made was to locate, and prepare for the following year. It is also very possable to operate as well, Swift had More than enough men with him. Just a thought...... -Ki-

 

[-Ki-]

A Indain trail runs very close to the area your speaking of, also the area around where Jenny Wiley was captured and tells of Indians making her work the ore brought back from a Indian silver mine in that area. The silver ore contained lead as well.

 

[lamar]

Dear Ki;
Yes, my friend, practically anything is possible, yet was it FEASIBLE, from a strictly historical point of view? Also, before we start examining any possibilities we must first scrutinize the motives behind the assumed efforts. In other words, what possible motive would have driven mr. Swift to purchase, ship, disassemble, transport then reassemble an apparatus such as a minting press?

Also, if were merely a minting press and nothing else, then the plausibility of such an operation would be feasible, however they would have also needed a rolling mill and blank punch, both items which weighed just as much, if not more than the actual coin press itself. Also, the cost for these three items would have been substantial and the mere purchase of them would have most likely raised a few eyebrows back in the court of jolly Ol' England. Surely, if an individual were to purchase such items, then it would have aroused no small amount of suspicion, my friend.

Once again, the possibility of setting up and operating such an enterprise was somewhat feasible, however the motive for doing so was not. Why would a person devote such a vast amount of time, money and effort in order to mint counterfeit coinage with a higher purity than the government It makes absolutely no sense at all, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[-Ki-]

Lamar --- Honestly i would not think a device such as a coin press would have been used. I agree 100%, To much work involved. Montgomery engraved dies in Virgina and carried them to Ky. He worked for the Royal Mint in London, and gain his coining knowledge there. I have read one story that the men used more silver than needed, this makes no since to me either. This could have came from the countless copying and recopying of Swifts journal. Is this story true, probally not. There was other trace elements the men could have added to the coins. Swifts Journal tells of another metal the men found to be useful in the coining process.
Swift learned his knowledge and location of these mines from the Shawnee which he traded with. Montgomery put up the money for the operation. "The Scottish Company" Swift tells of purchasing ships from them. Fact being Scottish immigrants were often employed by colonial governments to collect taxes, enforce financial laws, collect duties, etc. Also a fact proving these men were real tells of Swift and Montgomery were both insured by Lloyd's Registry from 1761 to 1769 as merchants and sea captains sailing out of Alexandera Va. This i think would make a great cover for the silver trade, and plus ensure the money the men had invested. The reason no Swift coins have turned up is simple, the men stored them in the Indian cave, taking very little or what they could carry back with them in one trip. A date was set in 1791 for the men to return and bring out the money then. 1770 Swift traveled back to England, and was put in prison for 15 years, could this have been for counterfeiting? not sure. But he returned to draw support for a bigger mining operation. I'm still researching my friend, but i tell you the legend is true...

 

[-Ki-]

The Rich Mine
One more thing i would like to debate, i hear people calling Swifts best mine the "rich mine". There is talk of the silver vein being so rich that the silver did not need to be put in the furnace, that Swift could have simply coined the silver from the vein, this i disagree with. When Swift refers to the mine being rich, hes simply talking about how many ounces of silver to the ton. An example of a mine being rich would be the men getting 200 ounces to the ton.... This is what Swift would be referring to the rich mine as.... just a thought -Ki-

 

[Curtis]

Hi all,This is great stuff!

Three items, first: the guy that had the mint experience was from the London Mint, they had better and more modern things going for them than did the "Continentals" so to me it’s plausible that they had a better Press outfit than the unit you mentioned that weighed 6 tons (the picture mentions it scale model, but I don’t see it weighing 6 tons)! They would not have had to carry all of it as they could easily make all the wood parts when they arrived at their destination, then placed the metal portions cast/fashioned in civilization into the assembly. I am not a money expert by any means, but if the real coins were made just as you say using the press methodology, then how could they expect to make a counterfeit that is molded to look just like the sharp detail a press makes without doing the same process? Wonder if there are examples of molded coins to compare. And please understand I am not insisting this is the way they did it, just trying to figure it out. I appreciate everyone’s input and these types of discussions are great. Let’s go back to Swifts descriptions …..how many versions say dies (dies are for press type work) and how many say molds? They knew the difference.
Second item is them using more silver than was needed was not referring to weight and only means they had a purity of say 98% where the real coins had a purity of say 94%. We all know the Europeans added materials to make the coins wear and to well, make the silver go further…kind of like our current situation…causes inflation. The fact that they had more pure coins means that either they had a almost pure source to begin with, or they had a really good smeltingrefining process. I have read a lot of things on the internet on refining/smelting but I am not sure how much goes into getting it even more pure….but they did have a lot of time on their hands!
Third, the purity of the silver in the state they found it…..maybe someone can ask a geologist what is the purist form silver comes in naturally. I imagine some of it was pretty close, seems I remember Henson’s books saying some Indians that revisited KY in more modern times had very good ore. There are all kinds of chemicals/elements in combinations with silver in natural ores. Like you mentioned Ki, lead is a big one, so is gold. Wonder which are the quickest/easiest to refine? I also wonder about the residual effects of the refining on the miners…especially if it had lead or cyanide.

 

[-Ki-]

Found this little bit of information in "The official Red Book" and thought id share cause it talks about hand made dies.
"For many centuries, counterfeiters have produced base-metal forgeries of gold and silver coins to deceive the public in the normal course of trade. These pieces are usually crudely made and easily detected on close examination. Crudely cast counterfiet copies of older coins are the most prevalent. These can usually be detected by the casting bubbles or pimples that can be seen with low-power magnification. Pieces struck from handmade dies are more deceptive, but the engravings do not match those of genuine Mint products.....

In the Swift journal Swift tells of Montgomery making handmade dies of English and French Crowns..........