Metaldetecting is officially dead in Sweden

[chub]

You can always come here to lawless Africa. Freedom from the tyranny of the bureaucratic nanny state syndrome that seems to be engulfing the world. Affordable bribery when required is usually good value. Sometimes here I use the 'coke' method. 2Litre coca cola to use the rubbish dump for free,park where you want etc.
One time I had to drive through Mozambique. I packed the car with pocket flask brandy bottles. Breezed through all the roadblocks and even had applause on my way home at one stop.
Why not go 180 degrees and shoot from the hip? Wheres the loophole? Whats considered off shore? Why not buy an underwater detector and a wetsuit?
Buy yourself a red headlight and do some night hunting. Think creatively about side stepping the law.
Think clearly and logically about the numbers .206 police per 100,000.
Go camping or hiking to remote locations.
You're a taxpayer? Break free from the shackles.

Chub

 

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[curious2]

So, $80 three-month permits for each site you want to hunt--and it can take months to obtain the permit. I probably have around 10 sites going at any one time, so I'd be spending around $3k/year just on permits, not counting the time and aggravation in constantly applying for renewals. Sweden is admirable in many respects, but has gone too far and has become some sort of weird feminist bureaucracy. Bureaucrats justify their existence by creating more bureaucracy, so things will probably only get worse.

4dd3, one idea might be for metal detecting clubs in Sweden to see if they can get any help from the manufacturers in lobbying efforts. I would think that the manufacturers maintain files on attempts by governments to ban or regulate the hobby; and probably have a lot of arguments and data showing that metal detectorists are not the enemy when it comes to protecting national heritage.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

..... Bureaucrats justify their existence by creating more bureaucracy, so things will probably only get worse.

4dd3, one idea might be for metal detecting clubs in Sweden to see if they can get any help from the manufacturers in lobbying efforts..... .

I betcha it wasn't the bureaucrats "justifying their own existence" that brought any anti-md'ing rules into play. I'll bet you it was the md'rs themselves, making themselves a giant bullseye, that brought about any rules. And any knee-jerk reactions of "lobbying" (fighting) will often just make you/me ALL THE MORE FRONT AND CENTER in need of "pressing attention" thus more rules.

Sometimes, ..... the LESS they think of us, the better. Not the more-they-think of us.

 

[Davers]

That crap is 'Totally UNCOOL'.
Hope things get changed ASAP.

 

[Eu_citzen]

I betcha it wasn't the bureaucrats "justifying their own existence" that brought any anti-md'ing rules into play. I'll bet you it was the md'rs themselves, making themselves a giant bullseye, that brought about any rules. And any knee-jerk reactions of "lobbying" (fighting) will often just make you/me ALL THE MORE FRONT AND CENTER in need of "pressing attention" thus more rules.

Sometimes, ..... the LESS they think of us, the better. Not the more-they-think of us.

For once you are correct. This new law came into place because the bureaucrats thought they spent to much time dealing with metal detecting permissions.
So effectively this laws only purpose is to (forcefully) cut down on applications by law-abiding metal detectorists.

 

[Eu_citzen]

You can always come here to lawless Africa. Freedom from the tyranny of the bureaucratic nanny state syndrome that seems to be engulfing the world. Affordable bribery when required is usually good value. Sometimes here I use the 'coke' method. 2Litre coca cola to use the rubbish dump for free,park where you want etc.
One time I had to drive through Mozambique. I packed the car with pocket flask brandy bottles. Breezed through all the roadblocks and even had applause on my way home at one stop.
Why not go 180 degrees and shoot from the hip? Wheres the loophole? Whats considered off shore? Why not buy an underwater detector and a wetsuit?
Buy yourself a red headlight and do some night hunting. Think creatively about side stepping the law.
Think clearly and logically about the numbers .206 police per 100,000.
Go camping or hiking to remote locations.
You're a taxpayer? Break free from the shackles.

Chub

Many go to the neighboring countries where the laws are more liberal. There is a search for loopholes and ways go to around; not sure how that is currently going.

I am pretty sure there will be a considerable amount of civil disobedience for those whom don't have alternatives.

 

[against the wind]

4dd3,,
Thank you for taking the time to share a very unhappy turn of events as it applies to metal detecting in Sweden. I respect the fact that you are a law abiding citizen and respect the Treasure Hunters Code of Ethics. One clause that takes precedence over all others is the opening statement of the Code.
"I WILL respect private property and do no treasure hunting without the owners permission." Well, your post states pretty much that a permit is required for all of Sweden, including your own private backyard. When I lived in NYC, we went to war with the bureaucracy that makes up the NYC Department of Parks and Recreation. The use of TV and Press was put into play by public protests in front of their highly visible administration building known as the Arsenal. It is located on luxurious 5th Avenue in the world famous Cental Park. The main objective was to stop the discriminatory practice of not allowing the recreational use of a metal detector in NYC Parks. "The Freedom of Information Act" to counter "Parks and Recreation's" claim that we were destroying public property was put into play. The Task Force for Metal Detecting Rights Foundation hired a lawyer and forced them to the table. The bad publicity and possible accusations of targeted discrimination were on the table.
Parks and Recreation spends millions of dollars every year on restoration due to the damage caused by sports like baseball, football, and soccer. There was no record of any damage or moneys spent on repairing damage caused by a metal detectorist.
Eventually as a result, a permit system came about. Since there is no fee for people using a public park to play Soccer, Football, or Baseball, it would be discriminatory to charge for a permit for Metal Detecting. It seems like yesterday but I believe the first permits were issued in 2010.
NYC Parks and Recreation is responsible for close to 30,000 acres of parkland and beaches. I believe our first permits gave us access to 18 parks and beaches. It has since expanded to over 200 parks and 15 beaches. Today, the population of NYC is about 8 1/2 million people. The 5 counties that make up the land mass of NYC is about 303 square miles. Considerably smaller than Sweden but much denser in population. If someone in government were to come up with the brilliant idea to ban metal detecting in the entire country, it would have to go to the Supreme Court.
I would suggest that you send a copy of your well written post of what is happening in Sweden, (as it applies to metal detecting,) to every major manufacturer of metal detectors throughout the world. They may want to support any legal effort you make to overturn your government's exorbitant fees to metal detect in Sweden.
When I travel, I always pack at least one of my metal detectors. I always check in advance whether or not the location I'm travelling to, is metal detecting friendly. I will not spend my money in a town, city, or country that does not allow metal detecting or charges a fee that is not reasonable. I wish you luck with your challenge. Many of the so called authorities that thought they had the power to make certain decisions were found to have overstepped their authority. That would never have come about unless someone stood up and challenged them
You can start by starting a letter writing campaign. Draft an email letter and include the addresses of all those individuals who were responsible for the anti-metal detecting laws in your country. Be sure to point out that the fees are exorbitant and discriminatory. Ask for a comparison chart of fees charged for all other recreational activities. Remind those who are responsible for the installation of the law that they are public servants and also remind them to be certain that their own house is in order. You are a Citizen of Sweden and you have a right to question and challenge when you experience something you feel isn't right.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....Parks and Recreation spends millions of dollars every year on restoration due to the damage caused by sports like baseball, football, and soccer. There was no record of any damage or moneys spent on repairing da mage caused by a metal detectorist......

Against-wind: And do you know what the difference is between you md'rs, and those baseball, football, and soccer people's "damage" is ? None of those sports-players ever went down to the park dept asking: "Hi. Is if ok if I damage the park please ?" (shame on them). But md'rs, on the other hand, think they have a need to show up at parks dept. desks (send emails, make phones calls) asking "Can I?" type questions.

If those sports players had gone in asking to do damage to turf, then THEY TOO could get told "no". And then THEY TOO could start forums lamenting their loss of freedoms.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

For once you are correct. This new law came into place because the bureaucrats thought they spent to much time dealing with metal detecting permissions.
So effectively this laws only purpose is to (forcefully) cut down on applications by law-abiding metal detectorists.

thanx for the input. This is a classic example. Some md'rs gather comfort if a place offers or requires a "permit". It conjurs up images of being able to detect nilly-willy, able to whip out the permit to show any busy-body. Right ? But as your case shows: It just puts md'ing front & center (ie.: attention to this "pressing issue") on their plate all the time. And then ..... sure as heck, one year some archies say "gee, do we really want these guys digging up the past?" or "Gee this paperwork is a hassle".

So the BEST SYSTEM is silent on the subject. Neither expressly allowed, nor expressly dis-allowed. And the best way to keep it that way is for us md'rs to stop making ourselves a giant bullseye.

 

[Eu_citzen]

thanx for the input. This is a classic example. Some md'rs gather comfort if a place offers or requires a "permit". It conjurs up images of being able to detect nilly-willy, able to whip out the permit to show any busy-body. Right ? But as your case shows: It just puts md'ing front & center (ie.: attention to this "pressing issue") on their plate all the time. And then ..... sure as heck, one year some archies say "gee, do we really want these guys digging up the past?" or "Gee this paperwork is a hassle".

So the BEST SYSTEM is silent on the subject. Neither expressly allowed, nor expressly dis-allowed. And the best way to keep it that way is for us md'rs to stop making ourselves a giant bullseye.

Probably, yes. Though some simply find it comforting to follow the law; myself included.
The permit thing has been around since about the 90's, going without one is illegal.

Since 80% of the permissions I know of are on modern parks, beaches etc. Actually digging historic stuff is quite rare.
In fact, if the bureaucrats/archies believe there's a good chance to find anything older then 1850, you (probably) won't get a permit for that area!

If memory serves you were the one that warned me about this some time ago. Figured I could follow up, since you indeed were correct!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...some simply find it comforting to follow the law....

No doubt. But ask yourself: " How did the law originate and get dreamed up " in the first place ?

 

[against the wind]

Probably, yes. Though some simply find it comforting to follow the law; myself included.
The permit thing has been around since about the 90's, going without one is illegal.

Since 80% of the permissions I know of are on modern parks, beaches etc. Actually digging historic stuff is quite rare.
In fact, if the bureaucrats/archies believe there's a good chance to find anything older then 1850, you (probably) won't get a permit for that area!

If memory serves you were the one that warned me about this some time ago. Figured I could follow up, since you indeed were correct!

I think you're wasting your time trying to convince or persuade "Tom in Cal" that maybe he should rethink his position or change his ways. He seems to be stuck on the word BULLSEYE. A permit to metal detect is better than an "Absolutely no metal detecting allowed!" Teaching a person who is new to the hobby that he doesn't need to investigate the legal restrictions in his area is akin to telling someone that they don't need a driver's license to drive a car. Who is going to replace a confiscated detector or pay a fine. Not "Tom in Cal"
His argument about the replacement of damaged fields due to use by sports teams is ludicrous. The responsibility and costs of maintenance is the parks department's responsibility. Many parks have allowed "Conservancies to contribute to the Parks Department Budget. This gives them a say in what takes place in certain parks. Central Park in Manhattan is the crown jewel of NYC's Parks. It receives 200 million visitors a year. The Central Park Conservancy contributes 75% of the 67 million dollar annual budget. Although it is still part of the New York City Parks Department, oversight was given to The National Parks Service. The park is patrolled by National Parks Service Officers, New York City Parks Police, and The New York City Police Department.
When a metal detecting permit is issued, the recipient receives a list of rules, as well as what parks you can hunt in. If someone new to metal detecting were to follow Tom in Cal's path,, and metal detect in Central Park, there is a very high chance of being stopped and issued a summons, and/or have their metal detector confiscated.
I guess Tom in Cal will respond with his usual
criticism and blame the hobbyist for asking for permission, and continue to yell, BULLSEYE. If it were up to me, I would address his behaviour by suspending his membership on Tnet. Continuously telling other hobbyist to ignore written rules that are enforcible by law is not what any of us should be promoting.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

ATW, item by item:

.... A permit to metal detect is better than an "Absolutely no metal detecting allowed!" .....

Sure. Yes. And silent on the subject (not addressed either way) is better yet. Right ? And this isn't addressing the "root" issue of "where are these rules or permits coming from in the first place. It's sometimes (not always) md'rs who make themselves targets-in-need of attention. Going in and inquiring "can I?" of bored officials.

..... Teaching a person who is newb to the hobby that he doesn't need to investigate the legal restrictions in his area.......

Re-read my stance. You will see that I tell skittish folks to look it up for themselves, if they're worried. The trouble with just saying "investigate the legal restrictions" , is that this often-times get morphed or interpreted to mean "go ask can I?". A person can investigate the legal restrictions by looking up laws for themselves. If it doesn't say "no md'ing", then presto, it's not dis-allowed. You will find my stand on that over and over and over again. Far from telling persons not to investigate the legal restrictions. Right ?

I do confess to "locker room talk" occasionally. And admit to "not fretting" myself personally about that . But , as said above, am QUITE CLEAR about how persons can look it up for themselves. You'll find no shortage of quotes from me about that (to a fault, doh ! )

... . Who is going to replace a confiscated detector or pay a fine. Not "Tom in Cal".....

Got examples of confiscated detectors ? Fines and/or jail ? My hunch is, if you got any examples, it's someone who's: Being obnoxious, can't take a warning , or sneaking obvious off-limits spots. Or.... in some way could have known better. If you have a link to the contrary, I'd love to see it.

.....His argument about the replacement of damaged fields due to use by sports teams is ludicrous. The responsibility and costs of maintenance is the parks department's responsibility. .....

Not sure what to make of this. Are you saying that md'rs do damage to fields ? Couple of thoughts on this: A) if you do damage to fields when md'ing, I'd suggest repeating the course on "target recovery 101". B) to the extent that ... sure ... someone could still gripe and *claim* we're damaging fields, I got news for you: If this is a bugaboo , and you can't tolerate any busy-body who gripes, then you've chosen the wrong hobby. Or stick to the beach and stay off turfed grass. I'm the first to admit this is a dilemma for for us when turf-hunting. But no amount of grovelling at city-hall desks is going to solve that (and will only make it worse)

Not sure what turf & damage had to do with this thread . Since this was about Sweden. But ... oh well.

.... blame the hobbyist for asking for permission.....

In the context of NYC , do YOU know why, way-long-ago, permits got dreamed up ? I know the knee-jerk reaction will be "someone must've left holes", right ? And perhaps so. Or perhaps that's the "go to" reason, simply because it's a bureaucrat's mental image. But I can give you point blank examples where, when you trace it back to the origins way-long-ago, it was sometimes someone going in and swatting hornet's nests.

I say this with no badgering, name-calling, ill-will, etc.... Your views are valid. I'm just adding balanced comment that is not outside forum rules to require banning. Nor do I wish for you to be banned.

 

[against the wind]

Tom,
I believe you have been involved in this hobby for decades. I believe I read that in one of your posts.
You have probably heard of or read the Treasure Hunters Code of Ethics. The biggest item is to always get permission. That burden is on you. From many of your posts, I have read your criticism of people asking for permission. We are supposed to ask if a permit is required. If that is the situation, then we are supposed to apply for and obtain a permit.
I can't expect you to know the list of rules governing metal detecting in NYC Parks. Those rule come with every permit that is mailed out. That mailing also includes a list of some 200 plus parks and 15 beaches.
One of the rules that you better not get caught violating addresses digging on any designated sports field. Baseball fields have backstops, football fields have uprites, and Soccer fields have nets. These fields are usually chalked off and everyone knows when they are on a field. There is no metal detecting or digging allowed on these fields. The point is,, damage to these fields are caused by the partipants of games on these fields, not by people with metal detectors. Millions of dollars of repair costs are realized when replacement sod and grass is brought in. There are huge passive lawns where metal detecting is allowed. However, on any given afternoon or weekend day, numerous choose up games of cricket, volley ball, soccer, and other inter active sports take over these lawns. The games on these Passive Lawns are so often, the grass is trampled into dust by the time the fall comes. None of this damage is caused by the guy with the metal detector but there are some who would like to say so. The money it costs the City of New York to maintain the parks lawns and designated sportsfields is phenomenal. None of this expense is because of the guy with the metal detector. The parks department tried to use the words "Damage from metal detecting " to avoid installing a permit system. In reality they were already spending millions in annual replacement of turf due to sports activity and consequently,, damage.
Tom, you are constantly leading new hobbyists away from the Treasure Hunter' s Code of Ethics. If you can't promote the code, then why make comments that are nothing more than criticism of it.
I first picked up a detector in 1970. That doesn't mean I am smarter or better than you. You may have been at it longer than me.
I joined the Federation of Metal Detector & Archeological Club, and was introduced to The Treasure Hunters Code of Ethics. I devoured the old Treasure magazines and saw that most if not all had the Code of Ethics printed inside their cover pages. I later joined the Task Force for Metal Detecting Rights Foundation. It was a privilege to help bring about the permit system that is in place in NYC today. Numerous hobbyists in other citys across the United States asked for help. In many instances, a positive resolution was reached. Even here on TNET, we do get members who are approached by so called authorities who tell them that metal detecting is not allowed. I have no problem contacting the Town Supervisor or Mayor. In many cases, we have found, not only was metal detecting allowed but no permit was required.
I don't ask you to go to bat for anyone, but it would be nice if you were to at least stop with the criticism and lose the BULLSEYE label that you enjoy putting on everyone else. To be honest Tom, I dont see you bringing anything attractive to the table.

 

[Eu_citzen]

I think you're wasting your time trying to convince or persuade "Tom in Cal" that maybe he should rethink his position or change his ways. He seems to be stuck on the word BULLSEYE. A permit to metal detect is better than an "Absolutely no metal detecting allowed!"

That post was to inform anyone else willing to listen. I know Tom is set in his ways.

 

[Muddyhandz]

What are the rights of land owners in Sweden?
In America, you own land, you can do what you want with it. Everything below (and above) the surface is yours. You can even shoot someone if they trespass.
In Canada, the minerals rights can be bought from under you and the government claims that ALL artifacts belong to the Crown.
If you find an arrow head on your property, technically you can only be a caretaker of it and the government owns it.
Do you fully own land in Sweden or is it like how I described Canada?

 

[Tpmetal]

What are the rights of land owners in Sweden?
In America, you own land, you can do what you want with it. Everything below (and above) the surface is yours. You can even shoot someone if they trespass.
In Canada, the minerals rights can be bought from under you and the government claims that ALL artifacts belong to the Crown.
If you find an arrow head on your property, technically you can only be a caretaker of it and the government owns it.
Do you fully own land in Sweden or is it like how I described Canada?

not entirely true in the usa, Depends on what rights you bought with the land. Mineral rights can often not be with the land owner.

 

[Muddyhandz]

I didn't look into it but that makes sense.
When it comes to detecting, you can keep all you dig up and do what you want with it on your own land?

Not long ago, anyone could grab a shovel and call themselves archaeologists and dig to China without any method, documentation or consequence.
The law I'm referring to in Canada about artifacts came into existence during the early 1980's and is called the Heritage Act.
It came about from the fact that Archaeologists were few in number; under-funded and out of fear of "looting" came up with this Heritage Act.
Technically, you have to apply for a permit to extract anything historical but nothing says you can't surface collect.

Farmer Bob picks up an arrow head on his field and may keep it (as a caretaker) but is not allowed to sell it UNLESS he found it prior to the 1980's Heritage Act.
Any Joe can walk into an antique shop and sell their artifacts and the antique dealer can then sell those finds on the market.
If the government goes after the antique dealer for selling such artifacts, they can just simply say these were found before 1980.
There's no real way to prove when these artifacts were found as the finds have exchanged hands a few times.
I'm only mentioning selling because that's what goes under the radar of the 'authorities."

In most cases you can detect at a public place and no one will bother you unless it's a registered historic site.
If you are on provincial or federal (Crown) land that does not have a historical marker but has some significant history to it, no police or conservation officer will know this unless a couple of archies told them to watch out for "looters." Then you will be asked to leave or very rarely face prosecution. Very remote possibility.

However, ask for permission at one of the thousands of private properties nearby, and what you find is between you and the landowner.
No one will be policing such an activity as there's no reason to.
Say if you find something important and believe in the archaeological method and want to report it to them so they can record such a find, do so after discussing it with the landowner! I've actually had landowners give me permission as long as I don't report anything to the archies, as the landowner doesn't want them ripping up their property.
Same with construction companies as their job site could be shutdown for months if something "historical" is found there and an archaeological dig happens.

It's unfortunate that we can't work together as we could contribute a great deal to the historical record but they treat us as looters and we view them as fascist.
Canadians, tell me of anyone you know who has had a metal detecting permit?
Well, if you go down to the Historic Resource Branch, one of the government archies will tell you to apply for one as they have existed since the early 1980's.
Has anyone been approached by some authority asking for your detecting permit? Hasn't happened to me in the three decades I've been detecting but an archie will tell you that you're not allow to detect without one.

I'm not telling anyone to get themselves in trouble over there in Sweden and break laws but I'm sure there must be some leniency or a loophole with private land. That's why I asked about landowner's rights.

 

[ARC]

I liked Sweden until now.

Hmmm still like Swedish women though. :P

 

[Eu_citzen]

What are the rights of land owners in Sweden?
In America, you own land, you can do what you want with it. Everything below (and above) the surface is yours. You can even shoot someone if they trespass.
In Canada, the minerals rights can be bought from under you and the government claims that ALL artifacts belong to the Crown.
If you find an arrow head on your property, technically you can only be a caretaker of it and the government owns it.
Do you fully own land in Sweden or is it like how I described Canada?

In essence, the law is written as such that the use of a metal detector is prohibited without permit.
As such, landownership offers no loop-hole.