metal detecting on gov land old house places

[reed88]

Hi ,
i dont know if this is the correct place to be asking this question , Didnt know of any other place to ask it on treasure net web site ,

Question is how do i find where the old home places were on goverment land , I live right in the midist of large goverment tracts that are in the excess of 15,000 acres or more , Now what i have in mind is , If i can find the old home places i can hike to them , But question is would if be worth it ,

Do i go to the goverment offices or State records or what , Any advice ? no one here knows where to go or where to look ,ive been looking at old maps but it dosent show any homeplaces on them , So any advice anybody ? would be Greatley Appreciated,
Reed

 

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[Frankn]

Lucky you to have such an environment! All right here are my best shots.
---the old Coast and Geodetic Survey maps even showed outhouses.
---the Library of Congress Map room online

 

[Swartzie]

If you can find any it would be worth it. Especially, if you like old stuff. The cellar holes I hunt are on state owned land. The land is now used for public hunting. The state bought the land when the dam system was put in back in the '30's. Plenty of old home site on the land too. Not inhabited since the '30's.

If you're looking at old maps that do show homesites in general, but you don't see any on the land you're interested in then there may have been no homes on it. But, with 15,000 acres you would think someone had to live on it at one time or another.

Not sure of your location, but here's a couple map sites that I use:
http://www.historicmapworks.com/Browse/North_America/
http://historical.mytopo.com/
Good if you live around the east coast.

-Swartzie

 

[Cass]

Hi Reed 88, I too live near a large Gov. tract of land with many old places on it with a world of history to go with it all.With permission I have hunted a small portion that is in use by several Gov. agences. That was a stroke of pure blind luck that permission was granted for the amount of years that it it was , but has now since been terminated because of exceptional heavy Gov. use of the land. There were many acres of the same Gov. tract that I hunted for probably 40 years until eventually it was all pretty much taken over by Timber companys, dirt/gravel mining companys who in turn leased the land to hunting clubs. This brings about locked gates and very dangerous detecting on any areas that happen not to be gated. If your area is not plagued by any of these companys or clubs you can consider yourself one lucky dude and there may be a good chance of gaining permission to hunt the land. It may also be a good idea to consider trying to locate some of the previous owners of the land, as they most likely still have retained some rights to gate and use their land. Land ownerwnership knowledge will likely be difficult to obtain, though they well could be a factor in gaining that permission you seek. You can always set out on your own and venture onto the land on your own (less your detector) and see who turns up to check you out. Not the best of ideas, but sometimes it get quick results, though not what you hoped for. Most Gov. land will have some sort of Security that may patrol the place from time to time. If it happens to be National Forrest Land,or Wildlife Managenment Land, you can forget any detecting on it and not bother asking. Keep doing like you are doing and see what you can to find out about just who is in charge of the land and hope for some good luck. You will need it.HH, Cass

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Cass, I think Reed's question was about how to find where old homestead sites on govt. land were located. Not whether or not he could metal detect there. I believe there are lots of way-back-woods places on govt. land (state and federal), where truth be told, no one cares less, or is even there to begin with. If you start down the road of thinking you need the state's permission, you risk getting a "no", when in fact, no one probably cared (till you asked). This same phenonemon occurs for city parks, schools, etc... : a city's parks or schools, or a beach or whatever is detected, since the dawn of time. No one cares. Then someone goes and "asks", and is told "no"?

I says it's more a matter of due-discretion: just stay clear of obvious historic monuments, be discreet and don't go waltzing through archeaologist conventions, etc...

 

[NHBandit]

Your local library should have old maps and alot of them will show the home sites, railroad lines, school sites, etc. A cool trick is to print a newer map of the same area on clear printing paper and then lay it over a copy of the old map. You can then see all the stuff that used to be there and is now gone. A little creative resizing is needed to get both maps to be the same size but it makes it very easy to locate the old sites. As far as whetehter or not it's allowed, when it comes to government land that's not of historic importance I go with the theory that if it's not posted it's ok.

 

[Cass]

Thanks Tom , you are correct and I realized I did not stay on topic after I had already posted my comment. I then proceeded to do a search for a BLO Website that would help locate some of those old homesites. BLO for a good while had a site that showed Original Survey Plat Maps, from the early 1800's, sometimes with homesites and other landmarks drawn in by the Surveyor. Site is being reworked now it appears and no longer offers that info at present. However (I think) you can still do a search using names of land owners, and co-orinates of legal land descriptions, and retrieve info about where landowners may have "possibly" lived, by comparing their area of ownership with land description applied to a topo of the area. Also,in many cases a TOPO from the 50's or (better yet) older would show the older houses etc., which in many cases would also be the same homesites from even much earlier times. Tom, I would not put a lot of faith in what many folks mistakenly think that because an area is not posted/fenced/ signs/& etc that no one cares enough to bother with those who Trespass. Big mistake,because that is what the Law calls it no matter what our thoughts about it may be.From what I understand, and have read about that bit of legality, in my neck of the woods, if you are caught "wherever" without written permission from the land owner you have commited "Trespass" and CAN BE held accountable to the Law. That is why I suggested a "trial run," less detector, so if bad things happened you would not have it confiscated by that legal process, as does happen in some cases. I hunted 20-40 years ago with the attitude of "chancing it",and never had any real problems, but would not dare hunt that way now because it is difficult now to pull into the woods to take a "whizz" without someone showing up wanting to know what you are up to. I know I may be overly cautious, but times have changed, and I have not even mentioned the frequent activity in isolated areas brought on by unsavoury charactors cooking Meth, or growing Pot, and the Law that are trying to catch them. Caution comes with old age and and I am plenty old enough to have been there and done enough to understand the reasoning behind that statement. HH Y'all!! Cass

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hi Cass. "Trespass"? Not sure where that came from. If you go to the question, you will see the question is about govt. land, not private land.

 

[Cass]

Tom, the "Trespass"came into play simply because all those involved here either seemed to be unaware of that possibility, or simply did not give a rip.I just happened to think it may be the right time and place to bring up the possibility that the situation offered a great opportunity for "trespass" to come into play. Sorry if I infringed on your "whatever", but I thought it would not to be a problem for anyone, but rather a help.Trespass is what the law considers it and from what I have read and understand for my neighborhood, it does not matter the least wheather you are on Gov. Land, Private land , or wherever. If you find that is not the case for most likely everyone's neighborhood, please tell me about it so I can be better informed. You can be sure there is always someone around that does "care" and take notice , especially when some $$ or advancement may be involved. I happen to know a couple of guys that were just a bit too "uncaring" about their detecting "near", not on, some Gov. Land and were arrested, charged and appointed a long wait for court. Cost them some Big $$ and the impoundment of their detectors for almost a year.Law wanted to impound their trucks, but "gave them a break!" HH, Cass

 

[Tnmountains]

A good topo map will show a dot for all old homeplaces and historic roads.

 

[CWnut]

here's a link that may help. if it doesn't, google " georgia historical topo maps" and put on a pot of coffee.


http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/topo/georgia/

 

[reed88]

Hi Again,
Thanks for the great comments and debates and all , I have called the dept of natl resources and they say its ok to detect on any gov land close to where i live cept yu cant detect around old graveyards and all just stuff like that , i dont know wher cass got it at that yu cannot detect on gov land ,

i was detecting on a beach that is on the edge of a gov lake but on gov land too , i was digging up coins by the dollars , the park keeper came flying down there on his golf cart and told me i couldnt be doing that , but he told me i could detect above that spot which is also gov land , problem is there was nothing above that to detect but woods and a boat ramp , yu can bet im gonna get written permission to go back and tell that park keeper to kiss my arse ,

since cass has raised questions about its illegal to detecto on gove land or managment land im gonna go get written permission , im out of space here .
thanks all
reed

 

[Cass]

Reed, Please do a Google on The Newest Federal Antiquities Regulations and you will understand more of what I am trying to bring out with my jaw about Trespass and premission etc. Unless I am wrong the Federal Regs & Laws make any kind of detecting illegal due to the forgone conclusion that you will be doing so for the purpose of digging/disturbing and Removing Historical or significant Ancient Archaeological Artifacts from the ground. That alone is against the law and requires a permit/permission/supervision/authorization or in most cases is simply forbidden to begin with, no matter whose dirt you are digging in. Many people in charge of Gov land don't have a clue as what the law actually says, or how to apply it. This is evident by the many different answers you will get from place to place as to what is allowed and what is not. That is where the abuse of Authority takes place and you hear of some folks getting permission in one area and those in another getting arrested and fined. Don't take my word for it, but check it out for yourself.I would surely suggest you clarify matters for yourself (If possible) before telling certain ones to "Kiss your A$$".LOL, That can be a big mistake. HH, Cass

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hey you guys: if you really want to worry about getting everyone to sign-off to make you "legal", you're probably in the wrong hobby. Because truth be told, I'll bet there's absolutely nowhere on any public land, no matter how innocuous, that you can get permission to hunt. And if you get a "yes", it merely means you did not ask with the right set of mental images. Ie.: did you be sure to mention "holes"? Did you be sure to mention antiquties, and en-riching yourself at the city's expense? Did you be sure to mention lost-&-found laws? Or how about "collecting" verbage that every city has rules against (to keep people from pulling up in their pickups and harvesting the woodchips, flowers, etc... yet technically, can be applied to our hobby too). And heck, asking them to "put that permission in writing" is the FASTEST way to get a "no". (because it conjurs up legal dramas, by the mere fact that you think it has to be in writing infers that you are about to do something risky, etc...).

I can think of oodles of places where you or I can detect, unbothered, and no one will ever care. Yup, even right in front of rangers, etc.... But I'll bet if I was to "ask", they'd be obliged to look it up in their books, find something silly to morph to apply to the question, and say "no". The moral of that story is ??

 

[Cass]

Tom , it is plain to see that your moral to the story would be to tell the Judge how silly the situation is in hopes to influence him in some way when he is about to slap $1800.00 worth of fines on you and keep all your detectors, gear and vehicles to be auctioned off for funds for Law Inforcement.Thanks but no thanks! Happy Hunting, Cass

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Cass, whenever the subject of grovelling before authorities (city clerks, park personell, etc.... thinking you need to ask, where it's not prohibited) comes up, and the opinion of "help yourself if it's not posted" gets floated, then ......... your response is sure to follow by someone:

"oh no! you might face fines, jail, and confiscations, oh no!"

But what's odd is, when you ask these people "please cite an instance of someone facing fines, jails, and confiscations", the examples are never forthcoming. Can you please cite for us any instances of someone facing such things? If you can think of any instance of arrests, fines, etc..., my hunch is that it's for someone who was night-sneaking obvious historic monuments, or someone who couldn't take a warning. Or was somehow being a nuisance in some way and could have /should have known better.

Do you have any examples of someone facing these ominous things for innocuous beaches, forests, parks, etc.... ?

 

[deepskyal]

Hi Reed88,
The Mytopo website is great for finding old structures that are gone. The idea of the photo-copying on clear paper to overlay is one idea, the other is use Google Earth.

With Google Earth, you can import the saved maps from sites like mytopo and over-lay them right in Google Earth. It's an awesome feature and one I find invaluable for exactly what you're doing. Might take a bit of practice, but you know where the general vicinites are, the older maps will narrow it down and the current google map will zero right in on it.

As to the debate on detectin on Gov't land...I've been detecting for almost 30 years and never asked permission from any gov't agency and never once was harassed or even questioned. I hunt almost exclusively in remote areas, some gov't land.
Only once in all my years did anyone ever ask me to detect elsewhere in a park and their reason was legit. Previous detectorists had punctured underground sprinkler lines in a big field and the caretaker didnt want further problems. I completely understood and he even pointed out the areas to me where there were no lines.

It's all in how you carry yourself. Smile, nod, don't act like your doin something wrong because you probably aren't unless, like Tom pointed out, you're diggin in some obvious historic site that you kno is illegal.

Good luck finding those building sites,

Al

 

[CWnut]

reed, not sure of where you were detecting a beach. But if it was on water that is controlled by TVA, then you are required to have a metal detecting permit issued by TVA. The permit is free and there are rules concerning detecting on TVA land that you need to be aware of. Just go to their website and there is a link explaining all....

 

[Cass]

Tom,I have two personal firends that were arrested, outside a park, charged,came before a judge almost 12 months later, paid their fines of $1800 or more,each, and missed jail time for whatever reason, you would have to ask the judge.When first arrested one of the 2 arresting officers decided over the other not to impound their vehicles. All (several) of their detectors and gear were impounded until they appeared in court and paid their fines. I am sure you will use it to prove whatever point you think you have for your determined reasoning to go about your careless, haphazard,and corrupt detecting habits, but such information is none of your business! I do not go about broadcasting my friend's business to you or anyone else. Use that however you wish to bolster your reasoning for bad judgement and detecting habits.You will surely, sooner or later, promote a bad image of all Metal Detectorists to the general public and bring yourself to grief. I no longer see any purpose in reasoning with you. Nuff said, Cass

 

[Tom_in_CA]

" .... outside a park ...."

Which begs the question: what kind of park? No doubt, one they should have known better I bet, and not the nameless faceless forests this post is about. The site of your friends is perhaps a posted site, or an obvious historic monument? or they were night-sneaking around and couldn't take a warning? Something tells me there's more to this story.

As for giving the hobby a bad name by not getting written permissions from mayors and desk-bound clerks wherever we go, it's actually the opposite, which is the net effect: I can give you example after example, of parks becoming off-limits, when people started asking for clarifications, permission, etc.... Bureaucrats, who perhaps never gave the matter thought before, nor would even have cared, yet field these questions. They are obliged to "address this pressing issue", and guess what happens? Now, in that case, who's the one doing a dis-service to the hobby?