Metal detecting a dug up old brick road in a small town in Florida

[Renaebri]

Hey so I was on my way to an old house permission yesterday (this town was founded in the 1900s) and seen the bricks of the road had been torn up and a whole stretch of it. There's construction equipment and cones, but they might be strict about it (they probably don't want anyone stealing the old bricks). But there's no signs that say not to be there? Idk. Who should I even ask in this situation for permission? I've been eyeing those roads and waiting for this opportunity for a while lol.

 

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[Dave Rishar]

But there's no signs that say not to be there?

That's a good sign. (Har, har har.)

Who should I even ask in this situation for permission?

Ask the owner. Note: if it's a public road, you are the owner.

 

[Diggin-N-Dumps]

That’s right. If it’s a public road, just detect while they aren’t working. I’ve hunted them a bunch and have always come out happy.

 

[Clay Diggins]

You guys are funny!

Man writes into the legal forum asking if he can detect a public road under construction. Of course the first mistake is thinking a "public road" actually exists.

According to Florida State law there is no such thing as a "public road". In fact there is no implication in the law that the public owns any roads.

The word “Road” in Florida means a way open to travel by the public. That could be a street or an alley or a sidewalk but the only right the public has to the road is the right to travel on the road. Nothing in there about owning the road or whether you can dig "your" road up. Just the simple public right to travel on the road.

Of course you can dig "your" road and you might find some cool stuff. You might be arrested for damage to public property or theft of private property. You might find the Sheriff is really into detecting and want to share his finds. It all depends on the circumstances and which public official you run into while detecting. You could argue it's not really a big thing and they might agree with you. You gotta try it to find out.

On the other hand looking to the law to give you permission to dig the construction area is hopeless. You have no such right and you won't find one anywhere in the law.

"Public" does not imply an ownership or even a right. Assuming because you are in the public that the "public" road, park, school or sidewalk belong to you is a misunderstanding that every court stands ready to educate you about. If you don't believe me go visit your "public" library at 2 o'clock in the morning, set up a tent house on your "public" park or park your car on your "public" school playground during recess.

 

[cudamark]

Like DND stated, just detect the place after hours when the work crew has left. Don't make a mess, leave their stuff alone, and you're unlikely to have any problem. If they don't want anyone there, they'll either put up signs or fence it off, or both.

 

[Dave Rishar]

You guys are funny!

We try.

Man writes into the legal forum asking if he can detect a public road under construction. Of course the first mistake is thinking a "public road" actually exists.

But private roads certainly exist. How could public roads therefore not exist?

According to Florida State law there is no such thing as a "public road". In fact there is no implication in the law that the public owns any roads.

I haven't looked into that, but for the sake of the discussion I'll assume that you're correct. Is this a state road that we're talking about though? If it's a county or municipal road, there may be other laws in effect.

There is certainly an implication that the public owns public roads, as it is the public that pays for their construction and upkeep, which is accomplished by an authority that's funded by and serves at the pleasure of the public.

The word “Road” in Florida means a way open to travel by the public. That could be a street or an alley or a sidewalk but the only right the public has to the road is the right to travel on the road. Nothing in there about owning the road or whether you can dig "your" road up.

Is there anything in there saying that you can't?

You might be arrested for damage to public property or theft of private property.

I doubt that.

On the other hand looking to the law to give you permission to dig the construction area is hopeless. You have no such right and you won't find one anywhere in the law.

The more important question is, is there a law saying that I can't?

If you don't believe me go visit your "public" library at 2 o'clock in the morning, set up a tent house on your "public" park or park your car on your "public" school playground during recess.

I don't visit my public library at 0200 because that is outside of its operating hours. (Also, they lock the door.) I don't set up tents in local public parks because there are city and county rules against overnight camping in them. I don't park my car on a public playground because there are laws about where I can operate my vehicle (which is a privilege in the first place, not a right) and because there are fences restricting vehicular access that I would have to damage to get in there, which is also against the law. The reason why I can visit any of these places during their normal operating hours (if operating hours exist) and do whatever lawful activity that I'd like to do is specifically because these are publicly owned sites, which is why I can metal detect in local parks without permission, but I cannot do the same on my neighbor's back yard.

No quotation marks are required around the word public. Public means public, and while public authorities can restrict use and access for public lands for a variety of reasons (some good, some not so good), that needs to be written down somewhere. Is it written down here?

 

[Clay Diggins]

We try.



But private roads certainly exist. How could public roads therefore not exist?



I haven't looked into that, but for the sake of the discussion I'll assume that you're correct. Is this a state road that we're talking about though? If it's a county or municipal road, there may be other laws in effect.

There is certainly an implication that the public owns public roads, as it is the public that pays for their construction and upkeep, which is accomplished by an authority that's funded by and serves at the pleasure of the public.



Is there anything in there saying that you can't?



I doubt that.



The more important question is, is there a law saying that I can't?



I don't visit my public library at 0200 because that is outside of its operating hours. (Also, they lock the door.) I don't set up tents in local public parks because there are city and county rules against overnight camping in them. I don't park my car on a public playground because there are laws about where I can operate my vehicle (which is a privilege in the first place, not a right) and because there are fences restricting vehicular access that I would have to damage to get in there, which is also against the law. The reason why I can visit any of these places during their normal operating hours (if operating hours exist) and do whatever lawful activity that I'd like to do is specifically because these are publicly owned sites, which is why I can metal detect in local parks without permission, but I cannot do the same on my neighbor's back yard.

No quotation marks are required around the word public. Public means public, and while public authorities can restrict use and access for public lands for a variety of reasons (some good, some not so good), that needs to be written down somewhere. Is it written down here?

Interestingly all your cogent objections and not so cogent suppositions are already addressed in the link to the actual Florida law I provided.

Logic would not dictate that private roads lead to inevitable public roads. Florida recognizes several different types of roads, many of them available for the public to travel on, but they do not define anything identified as a "public road".

The point I'm making here is that this is a forum reserved for dealing with legal issues. I've provided you with the law. You have replied with assumptions and ideas that are not found in the law. Statements like "is there a law saying that I can't", "There is certainly an implication that the public owns public roads", "If it's a county or municipal road, there may be other laws in effect" will get you a grin and maybe even a little laugh in court but they have no legal merit.

Read the link and give up on the silly assumption that if the law doesn't say you can't blow up bridges, poison water supplies, paint children organic green or kick weasels then it must be legal to do those things. As long as you assume anything "public" or paid for with tax money gives you a right do with it as you please you will be playing on the wrong team.

I specifically quoted the part of the Florida law that limits what you can do with a publicly accessible road. The word “Road” in Florida means a way open to travel by the public. Travel is your right when the road is open to the public. You have no other rights to roads. Read through that law and see for yourself.

Outside of the law question you may be free of arrest during your digging of public roads. You may remain undiscovered much like many crimes go undiscovered. You may be given a free pass by local officials who don't wish to enforce the laws already on the books, that happens all the time. You may exceed the speed limit like 40% of all drivers and never get a ticket but that doesn't mean if you aren't caught that it's "legal".

I'm not going to get all lawyer on you, I could care less if you or anyone else detects torn up roads. This is pretty petty stuff but it was enough of a concern for the poster to ask about the legal implications.

To answer your question "is there a law saying that I can't?" Yes, even the trespass laws are clear enough to get a conviction. I'm pretty sure the construction area was marked off with cones, tapes or signs and there is a sign warning "Road Closed". In the law that's considered enclosed and posted.

Florida Criminal Code

810.12 Unauthorized entry on land; prima facie evidence of trespass.–
(1) The unauthorized entry by any person into or upon any enclosed and posted land shall be prima facie evidence of the intention of such person to commit an act of trespass.

Let's face it, it's Florida and if somebody gets a bug up their smoke hole there will be ways to interpret the law to back up the badge that's harassing you. There is no right to detect or dig road construction sites. If you want to take the risk go for it, just don't try to make out like it's legal when someone asks the question. That's a disservice to your fellow detectorists.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Of course you can legally dig in the torn up roadway.

THIS ^^^^^ is armchair lawyering.

No basis in fact or law. No examples or even an anecdotal second person tale.

Have some balls and just go detect it.

Just an opinion based on a feeling about your balls.

 

[Renaebri]

No balls here (girl) maybe that helps! Haha. Went and detected it today, unfortunately they already put a layer of new dirt on there when i spotted it so i didn't get there soon enough. All I found was this thick piece of glass that looks kinda old but I'm no expert. It has seams and is iridescent, flakes off so maybe not. Other than that just junk and melted lead.


Thanks for the replies and info, i just had to try and it turns out no one really cared. Disappointed I couldn't find any coins but maybe they'll dig up more bricks in the future!

 

[Dave Rishar]

Interestingly all your cogent objections and not so cogent suppositions are already addressed in the link to the actual Florida law I provided.

No, they are not.

Logic would not dictate that private roads lead to inevitable public roads.

Yes, it would. If there were no public roads, there would be no private roads. It would just be roads, which are defined (per your link) as [FONT=&quot]“Road” means a way open to travel by the public...[/FONT]

I'm not a lawyer, but that sounds like a public road to me, even if they don't dumb it down to "this is a public road" or something like that. It is open to the public. A private road is not. There may be some Florida weirdness saying that because my driveway links to a way open to travel by the public, my private property is now also open to travel by the public, but I doubt that.

Florida recognizes several different types of roads, many of them available for the public to travel on, but they do not define anything identified as a "public road".

Because the legal term "public road" does not seem to exist in Florida, does that invalidate the concept? If I were involved in a court case and used the term "public road," might a judge understand what I was talking about? What would he or she think that it meant? Would this be relevant in a courtroom?

The point I'm making here is that this is a forum reserved for dealing with legal issues. I've provided you with the law. You have replied with assumptions and ideas that are not found in the law. Statements like "is there a law saying that I can't", "There is certainly an implication that the public owns public roads", "If it's a county or municipal road, there may be other laws in effect" will get you a grin and maybe even a little laugh in court but they have no legal merit.

If anyone wound up in a courtroom over this, I apologize. If they did not, I'll enjoy a grin and a little laugh myself.

Read the link and give up on the silly assumption that if the law doesn't say you can't blow up bridges, poison water supplies, paint children organic green or kick weasels then it must be legal to do those things.

If it's not against the law, then it's not against the law. Are those things not against the law in Florida?

And yes, if it's not against the law to do it, then it is not against the law to do it. That's the way the law works, as I understand it. Again, not a lawyer, but if I went and blew up a bridge and there was no prohibition against manufacturing an explosive large enough to do that (there is), and no prohibitions against impeding traffic or damaging public infrastructure (there are), and I was allowed to be there (I am), I'm not sure what they would charge me with.

I specifically quoted the part of the Florida law that limits what you can do with a publicly accessible road. The word “Road” in Florida means a way open to travel by the public. Travel is your right when the road is open to the public. You have no other rights to roads. Read through that law and see for yourself.

Honestly, I have better things to do with my time. Can you point me to something that says that the OP cannot do what they wanted to do?

Outside of the law question you may be free of arrest during your digging of public roads. You may remain undiscovered much like many crimes go undiscovered. You may be given a free pass by local officials who don't wish to enforce the laws already on the books, that happens all the time. You may exceed the speed limit like 40% of all drivers and never get a ticket but that doesn't mean if you aren't caught that it's "legal".

Did you know that there's no federal law prohibiting the possession of a flamethrower? I'm not talking about that Tesla toy, but rather a military grade, torch-a-bunker flamethrower with the fuel tanks and ignition flares and all of that. I only learned that about a year ago. There may be some local restrictions, but federal law does not prohibit it because federal law does not prohibit it, meaning that it's legal. It's a mind blower, but there we are. That's exactly how I can legally metal detect in local parks and on municipal property - because they don't explicitly disallow it anywhere. I'm sure that if I asked enough people, I'd eventually find someone that would tell me that I couldn't. But I don't ask, and the existing laws don't prohibit it, and there I am.

Am I misunderstanding how citizens can purchase flamethrowers, and how I metal detect on city ("public") property?

To answer your question "is there a law saying that I can't?" Yes, even the trespass laws are clear enough to get a conviction. I'm pretty sure the construction area was marked off with cones, tapes or signs and there is a sign warning "Road Closed". In the law that's considered enclosed and posted.

OP didn't make it sound that way. If there were fences, or even signs, I would have advised otherwise. It didn't sound like that to me.

I don't have a dog in this fight. The last time that I was in Florida, barring airports only, was over 20 years ago. I believe that I gave good advice. If you would like for me to say that I gave bad advice, I'm willing to do so if it will make you feel better. I don't think that I did though.

No balls here (girl) maybe that helps! Haha. Went and detected it today, unfortunately they already put a layer of new dirt on there when i spotted it so i didn't get there soon enough. All I found was this thick piece of glass that looks kinda old but I'm no expert. It has seams and is iridescent, flakes off so maybe not. Other than that just junk and melted lead.

Were you arrested and/or fined during your search? Asking for a friend.

 

[cudamark]

 

[Goldfinger450]

Hmm, when in doubt in situations like this, ya pull out Your Sunglasses, adjust them , Put ON a Smile and go do what you want with that smile, if you get accosted them keep smiling and walk away unscathed. It Is Honest.

 

[etex]

Hit it, have hunted many and nobody has ever said anything except what are you finding, he who hesitates loses

 

[etex]

No, they are not.



Yes, it would. If there were no public roads, there would be no private roads. It would just be roads, which are defined (per your link) as [FONT="]“Road” means a way open to travel by the public...[/FONT]

I'm not a lawyer, but that sounds like a public road to me, even if they don't dumb it down to "this is a public road" or something like that. It is open to the public. A private road is not. There may be some Florida weirdness saying that because my driveway links to a way open to travel by the public, my private property is now also open to travel by the public, but I doubt that.



Because the legal term "public road" does not seem to exist in Florida, does that invalidate the concept? If I were involved in a court case and used the term "public road," might a judge understand what I was talking about? What would he or she think that it meant? Would this be relevant in a courtroom?



If anyone wound up in a courtroom over this, I apologize. If they did not, I'll enjoy a grin and a little laugh myself.



If it's not against the law, then it's not against the law. Are those things not against the law in Florida?

And yes, if it's not against the law to do it, then it is not against the law to do it. That's the way the law works, as I understand it. Again, not a lawyer, but if I went and blew up a bridge and there was no prohibition against manufacturing an explosive large enough to do that (there is), and no prohibitions against impeding traffic or damaging public infrastructure (there are), and I was allowed to be there (I am), I'm not sure what they would charge me with.



Honestly, I have better things to do with my time. Can you point me to something that says that the OP cannot do what they wanted to do?



Did you know that there's no federal law prohibiting the possession of a flamethrower? I'm not talking about that Tesla toy, but rather a military grade, torch-a-bunker flamethrower with the fuel tanks and ignition flares and all of that. I only learned that about a year ago. There may be some local restrictions, but federal law does not prohibit it because federal law does not prohibit it, meaning that it's legal. It's a mind blower, but there we are. That's exactly how I can legally metal detect in local parks and on municipal property - because they don't explicitly disallow it anywhere. I'm sure that if I asked enough people, I'd eventually find someone that would tell me that I couldn't. But I don't ask, and the existing laws don't prohibit it, and there I am.

Am I misunderstanding how citizens can purchase flamethrowers, and how I metal detect on city ("public") property?



OP didn't make it sound that way. If there were fences, or even signs, I would have advised otherwise. It didn't sound like that to me.

I don't have a dog in this fight. The last time that I was in Florida, barring airports only, was over 20 years ago. I believe that I gave good advice. If you would like for me to say that I gave bad advice, I'm willing to do so if it will make you feel better. I don't think that I did though.



Were you arrested and/or fined during your search? Asking for a friend.

No Perry Mason moment here

 

[Dave Rishar]

Hmm, when in doubt in situations like this, ya pull out Your Sunglasses, adjust them , Put ON a Smile and go do what you want with that smile, if you get accosted them keep smiling and walk away unscathed. It Is Honest.

Some of these jokers around here have been known to don hardhats and high-vis safety vests, just to complete that "here on official business" look. I've never bothered to actually disguise myself; in fact, after one unfortunate incident at a federally owned site, I've taken pains not to represent myself as anything other than a citizen engaging in their hobby in a strictly unofficial capacity.

My rule of thumb (which is probably not a valid defense in court, but it's worked well so far) is that if it's public land, there are no laws prohibiting metal detecting there, and they haven't posted signs or fences, it's fair game. I won't say that I've never been questioned by citizens, but I've never been questioned by government employees - except for that incident mentioned above. I wasn't stopped in that case, but the line of questioning went in a direction that I didn't like. I don't do this or recommend doing this on private property because it's usually illegal, but I know plenty of people that do it all the time and have never had a problem with it.

If my advice got OP arrested, I would apologize most sincerely and I would stop telling people to do this. But it didn't, and it won't, and I won't.

 

[Dave Rishar]

An unrelated line of research led me to this, but it made me think of this conversation regarding the law, and how what is not spelled out as being unlawful is essentially legal in the US:

In 1955, a generally unsavory individual named Jack Gilbert Graham bombed a plane - United Airlines Flight 629 - in an effort to kill his mother out of revenge, and also to collect on her life insurance. Long story short, he was successful, and 43 other people died with her. The FBI eventually tracked him down and got a confession of him. In what should have been an open-and-shut case, they looked at what they would charge him with and found out (much to their chagrin) that in 1955, federal law did not prohibit a person from bombing a plane. Instead, they charged him with the premeditated murder of his mother. He was found guilty and executed for it, but it's worth noting that his crime, in the eyes of the law, was murdering his mother. He did not die for killing the other 43 people, and he certainly did not die for blowing up the plane. He couldn't die for that. It was legal at the time.

Blowing up planes was made illegal the following year, which is a bit silly when you think about it. Passing a law against blowing up planes would be a no-brainer to me. Sure, it wasn't a law before then because the issue hadn't come up and it's difficult to predict new crimes, but once the act had been done, I'd think that every legislator would be on board with it.

"Say, I don't like that people can blow up planes. I'm a Democrat. We don't do that. But you're a Republican! You argue with me on everything! What is your argument here?"

"No argument here, my good man. We Republicans don't like this either. Let's make it illegal! But what about the President? Will he sign it"

"Presidents don't like it when people blow up planes either. If you gentlemen pass it, of course I'll sign it. Did you really need to ask? But I wonder what the voters will say."

"I'm a voter and I don't want someone blowing up the plane that I'm on. It really ought to be against the law. All of my friends are voters and they're also uncomfortable with the idea of people legally blowing up planes."

A law like this seems like a law against cannibalism, or burning down orphanages, or parking sideways to take up three spots. Regardless of political leanings, I'd think that just about everyone would be on board. The public would be behind it. There would be no big money fighting against it. You would think that a law like this would shoot right through Congress like grease through a goose and the President would barely have time to sign it before it crossed his desk, but it took the federal government nearly a year to make it a law. Remember this when you're dissatisfied with how long it takes laws to pass. This was basically a best case scenario, a law every decent human being (and even most cretins) were okay with, and it still didn't happen overnight.

What does this have to do with metal detecting? Some of us opine that if it's not against the law, then it's not against the law. A guy blew up a plane and killed 44 people and they didn't charge him with blowing up the plane, because blowing up the plane wasn't illegal at the time. Presumably, if there had been no one on the plane at the time and the plane hadn't damaged anything on the way down, then he wouldn't have been executed or even jailed. Think about that when you're wondering whether or not you can detect a site, but make sure that you understand the law first.