Mercury gilded 1850-1865 Civil War era US Navy cuff button!

[celtex]

I got this a short time back and kind of for got it but have been reading on here about the great buttons found back east and north so I thought I see what I found in the Texas Panhandle. It is about the size of a USA dime. Added back as well.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

DR.ÖTEK Metal Detector, Waterproof Gold Detector, Pinpoint & Terrain Modes, Professional Metal Detector - Grab it through Amazon!

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Button Guys to the rescue! Date and ID please

Heres the old post of the member that found a tinned back "Navy looking" button. Maybe you guys could check it out in Tices book. The other finds ranged from 1897-1991. I think the eagle is different. http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,186976.msg1370520.html#msg1370520

He says its Civil War era.
NA-113
United States Navy
1850-65
2pc. convex brass, 13mm
BM: "Tin back"
Eagle facing left at top of horizontal anchor, lined field, 13 five pointed stars, & rope border

Dave

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Diving for Pleasure and Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[Lucas]

Re: Button Guys to the rescue! Date and ID please

The gilding looks like very high quality, maybe even fire (mercury) gilt?

That would rule out blazer (cuff size) button.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Button Guys to the rescue! Date and ID please

The gilding looks like very high quality, maybe even fire (mercury) gilt?

That would rule out blazer (cuff size) button.

OK cool. And the button on the uniform, would that have the same mercury guilting or different?
Do you recognize the uniform?

Here the 2 iron backs side by side: (1st button is from the unidentified "hippie" uniform found in the ground)



And here are 2 1900's brass backed US Navy, Waterbury and NS Meyer. (bottom)




Here are 2 Waterbury CW era brass backed US Navy buttons I found in South Florida. (bottom) http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,59629.0.html

 

[kuger]

Re: Button Guys to the rescue! Date and ID please

I just today sent the fellow that dug the half of the False two piece buckle six of these buttons.All had tin backs and only one had a generic looking back mark.I wrote them off as "worth less",which to others they are not.They will display nicely with his buckle.It would be great for there to be some info on them to go in the display as well

 

[Lucas]

Re: Button Guys to the rescue! Date and ID please

OK not really a button guy, but...

fire gilt is thicker than electroplate, and sometimes gets that nice orange color.
IIRC fire gilding involves floating a bit of gold foil on a layer of mercury, and then burning off the mercury/melting the gold onto the item. Burning off mercury... guess why they quit doing that?

Notice that the background lines go past the rope border. For a dime size button that is a lot of detail, and we are comparing later and faux full size buttons to the amount of detail in a cuff button.

 

[celtex]

Re: Button Guys to the rescue! Date and ID please

OK not really a button guy, but...

fire gilt is thicker than electroplate, and sometimes gets that nice orange color.
IIRC fire gilding involves floating a bit of gold foil on a layer of mercury, and then burning off the mercury/melting the gold onto the item. Burning off mercury... guess why they quit doing that?

Notice that the background lines go past the rope border. For a dime size button that is a lot of detail, and we are comparing later and faux full size buttons to the amount of detail in a cuff button.

I also see a big difference in the anchor loop from posted sample buttons.

The "gold" color is very vivid after I cleaned it, as picture shows. I am leaning toward CW but I am such a novice I will wait on you guys final determination!

Thanks all for you valuable time.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Button Guys to the rescue! Date and ID please

OK not really a button guy, but...

fire gilt is thicker than electroplate, and sometimes gets that nice orange color.
IIRC fire gilding involves floating a bit of gold foil on a layer of mercury, and then burning off the mercury/melting the gold onto the item. Burning off mercury... guess why they quit doing that?

Notice that the background lines go past the rope border. For a dime size button that is a lot of detail, and we are comparing later and faux full size buttons to the amount of detail in a cuff button.

I also see a big difference in the anchor loop from posted sample buttons.

The "gold" color is very vivid after I cleaned it, as picture shows. I am leaning toward CW but I am such a novice I will wait on you guys final determination!

Thanks all for you valuable time.

I would say its not Civil War, but I could be wrong. The 2 bottom buttons I posted are CW. Your Navy design seems to be either postCW-early 20th century or its civilian. I seem to remember reading that this design was used up til 1941. I would like to see an iron backed Navy button so we can make a positive ID.. (the only iron back match we have found is the unidentified "hippie" uniform) If we could ID the uniform, we could ID your button.

Heres a good link on early guilding, but this button is much later.
http://www.landsend.com/cd/fp/help/0,,1_36877_36882_37075_,00.html

The first wonderfully sparkly gilt buttons were made in Birmingham between 1797 and 1800. They were elegant, yet affordable. People took to them immediately, and they became the height of fashion. Even the Americans began making gilt buttons by 1810, after stealing the gilding secret from the British!

Actually, the process was a fairly simple one. Five grains of gold per gross (144) of buttons was added to a mixture of mercury, then brushed on the brass buttons, which were then cooked in a furnace. Buttons could be double gilt, triple gilt, and so on, depending on the number of grains or number of brushings used.

The new gilt buttons were the vanguard of a "golden age" of metal buttonmaking that flourished in the first half of the 19th century, and produced buttons that haven't been equaled to this day. Sporting buttons for the gent, military buttons for the soldier, even livery buttons for the household servant were all beautifully crafted.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Button Guys to the rescue! Date and ID please

BTW celtex, is your button iron backed? Did you do a magnet test?


Im sending a PM to vayank54. He can solve this mess lol. Be patient celtex, well get it right.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Button Guys to the rescue! Date and ID please

I just today sent the fellow six of these buttons to the fellow that dug the half of the False two piece buckle.All had tin backs and only one had a generic looking back mark.I wrote them off as "worth less",which to others they are not.They will display nicely with his buckle.It would be great for there to be some info on them to go in the display as well

What 6 buttons? Did you find matching tin back Navy buttons? Do you have a pic?

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: Button Guys to the rescue! Date and ID please

Well once again I stand corrected!!I.P. you know my knowledge of buttons!!Nil!!Just when you think you are learning something,you are reminded there are other variables!!Thanks

Hey I don't know either, and didn't read the below posts yet, but I did get the thread going again.

Damn Carwin! That fight went exactly how I thought it would... but he was suppose to take him out by the bell! Obviously Carwin has more of a battle to keep his size and strength and it takes away from his cardio. I think many heavy weights can stand with Lesner but man once he gets them down... See ya.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Button Guys to the rescue! Date and ID please

OK not really a button guy, but...

fire gilt is thicker than electroplate, and sometimes gets that nice orange color.
IIRC fire gilding involves floating a bit of gold foil on a layer of mercury, and then burning off the mercury/melting the gold onto the item. Burning off mercury... guess why they quit doing that?

I have a hundered questions lol but ill just ask one so not to clutter up the thread anymore than it is. . When did they stop using mercury guilding on buttons? This button does appear to have a nice orange colour.

 

[Lucas]

Re: Button Guys to the rescue! Date and ID please

Uniform...

looks like white cotton?

Probably double breasted CPO's dress whites.

Fire gilding... outlawed in France in 1830. US?

 

[kuger]

Re: Button Guys to the rescue! Date and ID please

I just today sent the fellow six of these buttons to the fellow that dug the half of the False two piece buckle.All had tin backs and only one had a generic looking back mark.I wrote them off as "worth less",which to others they are not.They will display nicely with his buckle.It would be great for there to be some info on them to go in the display as well

What 6 buttons? Did you find matching tin back Navy buttons? Do you have a pic?

You wont beleive this Big Cy,but no I dont have pics of those buttons,they didnt mean anything to me.I got them in a E-Bay auction,that had a good button in the mix.Maybe when he gets em he will think enough of em to post pics

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Button Guys to the rescue! Date and ID please

I just today sent the fellow six of these buttons to the fellow that dug the half of the False two piece buckle.All had tin backs and only one had a generic looking back mark.I wrote them off as "worth less",which to others they are not.They will display nicely with his buckle.It would be great for there to be some info on them to go in the display as well

What 6 buttons? Did you find matching tin back Navy buttons? Do you have a pic?

You wont beleive this Big Cy,but no I dont have pics of those buttons,they didnt mean anything to me.I got them in a E-Bay auction,that had a good button in the mix.Maybe when he gets em he will think enough of em to post pics

I realize there are tinbacked military buttons but what I wanted to know is if they were US Navy.

 

[kuger]

Re: Button Guys to the rescue! Date and ID please

Me too......for him and his display

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Button Guys to the rescue! Date and ID please

Me too......for him and his display

Ah OK same design I guess. Well I just got a PM from vayank. I asked him to straighten out this mess.. It appears this design was used from 1850-1941 and the Navy did use some tinbacks. He believes they went on hats. So I guess its possible to be CW.
Ill let him explain. Its all a learning experience.

 

[vayank54]

Re: Button Guys to the rescue! Date and ID please

I think the button at the top is late 1800s to 1941. I can't tell from the pic if the back is brass and eaten up or iron and rusted out. I have dug navy cuff sized buttons in civil war camps. I believe these went to a certain type of hat that was popular with the soldiers. I've seen civil war and earlier navy cuff size dug and nondug with tin or iron backs and have seen a few later coats but all the tin or iron back coats had self shanks which mean they might actually have been civilian buttons.

 

[fyrffytr1]

Re: Button Guys to the rescue! Date and ID please

Correct me if I am wrong( And I am most of the time!) but I noticed that the upper fluke of the anchor is behind the wing. All the buttons in Albert's have the fluke in front of the wing except for one or two. And those two have part of the fluke point showing.
Now, what that means as far as this button being civilian or military, I don't know. I just thought I would point that out.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Button Guys to the rescue! Date and ID please

Correct me if I am wrong( And I am most of the time!) but I noticed that the upper fluke of the anchor is behind the wing. All the buttons in Albert's have the fluke in front of the wing except for one or two. And those two have part of the fluke point showing.
Now, what that means as far as this button being civilian or military, I don't know. I just thought I would point that out.

good observation

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Button Guys to the rescue! Date and ID please

Pretty sure its a blazer button,civilian 1900's

With the anchor and shells? Or are you saying they replicated older buttons for blazers?

I know yours is different but here is the most common iron back civilian button with anchor and cannonballs (I found in my backyard) mistaken for Navy.

Did you test it with a magnet yet?