Ma Pa mine of Tayopa has been found

[Blindbowman]

who knows what the Peralta told Waltz before he shot them ... the point is here we have 3 mines and the placer in the same locations to each other and the same types of sites in the same order ..related to the Peralta i dont see a direct link to the peralta but waltz says things they would have only known ...unless he had read the stones .. i dont think so .. to complex ...

so the only other way he could have known was the Peralta ..

 

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[Oroblanco]

who knows what the Peralta told Waltz before he shot them ... the point is here we have 3 mines and the placer in the same locations to each other and the same types of sites in the same order ..related to the Peralta i dont see a direct link to the peralta but waltz says things they would have only known ...unless he had read the stones .. i dont think so .. to complex ...

so the only other way he could have known was the Peralta ..

How can we ever know whether Waltz killed any Peraltas at all? Even in the versions he told Julia & Reiney, he says the men were two peons he later recognized as men who worked for Peralta not Peralta family members; I have to respectfully disagree that the ONLY way in which Jacob Waltz could have found his mine was via the Peraltas, he was a well-experienced prospector and gold miner, he found several excellent gold mines up in the Bradshaws and had prospected in California even before he came to Arizona so he very well could have prospected and found a gold mine all on his own, without any murdering of Mexicans involved. Even if there were Peraltas and a bloody massacre, murders etc then how did the Peraltas ever discover the mine? No record. Gold mines don't just jump out at people, someone has to discover them. Also you have raised an interesting (and perhaps important) point;

<you wrote>

here we have 3 mines and the placer in the same locations to each other

<you also wrote>

i looked i could not find the placer ..

How can we know there even IS any placer, if you could not find it? It seems that you are assuming there is a placer (El Paramo) when you didn't find it, this could mean a mis-identification of the site! Alternatively, if there truly is a placer in the correct location to match the Tayopa map, then it should be a simple step to locate this and find placer gold!
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening Cactus You asked about I.E., I am sorry but his identity must remain secret for a while, I hope that you understand.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Blindbowman]

lol if you think you can find that place go for it .. i am no push over .. i looked and looked good i pan the area about 15 times and no sign what so ever , waltz said it comes out in the wash .. i believe he was telling the truth ,, based on what he has said that was correct ..

How can we ever know whether Waltz killed any Peraltas at all? the graves, why don't you go to the Peralta camp and look ..i did .. yes i know where the hiden camp is and the peralta camp .. come one you think i am a fool ...

 

[Blindbowman]

how much do you think the gold ore under the bed would be worth to day ...?

 

[Blindbowman]

how did you know the dagger points north ? see no one wants to play ...

 

[Oroblanco]

lol if you think you can find that place go for it .. i am no push over .. i looked and looked good i pan the area about 15 times and no sign what so ever , waltz said it comes out in the wash .. i believe he was telling the truth ,, based on what he has said that was correct ..

How can we ever know whether Waltz killed any Peraltas at all? the graves, why don't you go to the Peralta camp and look ..i did .. yes i know where the hiden camp is and the peralta camp .. come one you think i am a fool ...

I live in South Dakota amigo, it is kind of a bit of a drive for me to go to the Superstitions, plus you would have to know the location of the other mines in order to triangulate the location of the placer. If that is Tayopa, then the Paramo placer should be easy to find, and placer gold is FAR easier to mine than hard rock gold. I would have thought you would want to locate that placer gold if for no other reason than to help recover some of the costs of traveling to AZ.

Graves you say - well how on Earth could we ever know exactly WHO was in those graves? They could be anyone, literally - unless there were at least some grave markers with the names of those interred, and since you never mentioned anything like that, I have to figure that there aren't any. People have died in the Superstitions for over 100 years amigo, it is not possible to ID exactly whom they were.

This is not a contest, I am not trying to trick you into telling the location of your sites, if you wish to tell more then I am happy to read it. I don't think you a fool, just that I have more doubts than you do (clearly) and am more hesitant to start calling things by names when I am NOT 100% sure or at least 98%. You are calling your site Tayopa now, but earlier you said it was the tomb of Montezuma - plus you have also said that you are not completely sure of exactly what it is that you found. I would like to read what you have to say about it, that leads you to call it Tayopa. Thank you in advance;

<you also wrote>

how much do you think the gold ore under the bed would be worth to day ...?

I can't recall offhand exactly how much there was, I think it was something like 44 pounds, over $630,000 in todays crap paper dollars.

<you also wrote>

how did you know the dagger points north ? see no one wants to play ...

It was not me that said the dagger points north, I said the dagger points WEST. As for people who want to play games, there are several whom are quite active in the Peralta stones threads, who very much like to play mind games (Twisted Fork, Ellie Baba, Santa Fe New Mexican, etc) you know me, I like things very straightforward. Time is my bugaboo, have only so much time I can spend on the internet on any day, some days not at all.
Roy

 

[Blindbowman]

lol ........this is not about money ..

 

[Oroblanco]

lol ........this is not about money ..

Well, not all of us are independently wealthy, to be going off on expeditions solely for the purpose of historical research. That might be fun and all, but it doesn't pay for the fuel you used to get there. I prospect and treasure hunt with an eye to locate precious metals, not for the historical interest alone.

There are others here with the same idea as you about money, and several believe the Lost Dutchman mine was all mined out (including Joe) however I am not convinced that mine was even found, let alone mined out, and the possibility of a large financial return is a major factor for any treasure hunt (or prospecting trip) for me.
Roy

 

[Oroblanco]

PS what did you decide about those four other sources with the MA and PA mines, public, private or not at all? Thank you in any case, whatever you decide.
Roy

 

[Blindbowman]

PS what did you decide about those four other sources with the MA and PA mines, public, private or not at all? Thank you in any case, whatever you decide.
Roy

tomorrow is another day

 

[Oroblanco]

PS what did you decide about those four other sources with the MA and PA mines, public, private or not at all? Thank you in any case, whatever you decide.
Roy

tomorrow is another day

I hear ya.

 

[Oroblanco]

I know you said that you only need ONE good source, but to me, having at least one other source is very important; for all too often, a source could be mistaken, in error, misleading, misunderstood by the author, or even deliberately wrong for the very purpose of misleading anyone who reads it. From what I can determine, this is not as common as you might imagine; in fact right offhand I know of only a handful of sources that are guilty of falsehoods - one of which is that Holmes manuscript, which you have some faith in, apparently.

Newspapers used to require a second source for any news report, most publishers of treasure type stories require at least two sources as a minimum for a book or story on treasures etc so it is not a wise policy to put all your faith in ONE source. Just as with the Peralta stones, and this is why I keep asking about another source to support that, for what if it were proven tomorrow, beyond ALL doubt, that the Peralta stones are a modern fraud? What would that do to your Tayopa-in-the-Superstitions theory? If you don't have other sources that support the theory - poof! It is like building a castle in the sand, if that single thread to prove it turns out to be FALSE.

Roy

 

[Springfield]

.... poof!

That about says it all. All turban, no genie. But wait, all will be revealed later, right? Later ..... later ..... later.... ?

 

[Furness]

Hello Jose,

I'm puzzled by the various measurments given here, as far as i have been able to find out a Vara was the stride of a Spanish soldier, and measures between 31 and 33 cms,

the elbow to wrist is from what i have read a pie, the vara being based on three times this measurment,
i found this online sometime ago,

vara in Mexico
In 1536 the Viceroy Don Antonio Mendoza promulgated an ordinance which established the vara as the fundamental unit of length in New Spain (which eventually included Venezuela, the West Indies, all Spanish territory north of Panama, and the Philippines). Only fragments of the ordinance survive, but those indicate: “The Mexican vara is the unit of all measures of length, the pattern and size is taken from the Castillian vara of the model of Burgos,” that is, 3 pie of the standard of Burgos.

But sources differ on the definition of the vara in Mendoza's ordinance. Some (Canales Santos) say an ordinance of 4 July 1536 made the vara equivalent to the paso salomónico (= 5 pies of the vara castellana). If so, the vara would have been 1.377 meters, and the units of land area defined in the ordinance correspondingly larger. Others (e.g., Stampa) speak of an ordinance of 9 March 1536 with “a vara of three feet and a paso of five feet”.

The Mexican Imperial Colonization Act of January 4, 1823, Art. 5 and 7,2 defined a series of land measures: the vara as 3 “piés geométricos,” the legua as a straight line of 5000 varas, the sitio as an area one legua on a side, the hacienda as five sitios, and the labór as one million square varas. Subsequent laws authorized the states to establish further regulations, providing they did not conflict with existing law. The Mexican states of which present-day Texas formed a part confirmed the units given above, and in 1834 the Land Law3 of the State of Coahuila and Texas added the millionada = a million square varas, thus equivalent to a labór, and (Art. 34) the ayuntamiento (a township) = 4 square legua.

The Mexican Ordinance for Land and Sea (September 15, 1837) adopted a value of 837 millimeters for the vara, subsequently altered by a decree of 1839 to 838.1 millimeters, and then by a decree of 1844 to 838 millimeters. A regulation of February 20, 1896, implementing metric land measures under the law of 19 June 1895, gave the vara the value 0.838000 meter.

1. Mariano Galván Rivera.
Ordenanzas de tierras y aguas, ó sea formulario geométrico-judicial para la designació, establecimento, mensura, amojonameiento y deslinde de las poblaciones...
Mexico, 1844.

2. John Sayles and Henry Sayles, compilers.
Early laws of Texas. General laws from 1836 to 1879, relating to public lands, colonial contracts, headrights, pre-emptions, grants of land to railroads and other corporations, conveyances, descent, distribution, marital rights, registration of wills, laws relating to jurisdiction, powers and procedure of courts, and all other laws of general interest. Also laws of 1731 to 1835, as found in the laws and decrees of Spain relating to land in Mexico, and of Mexico relating to colonization; laws of Coahuila and Texas; laws of Tamaulipas; colonial contracts; Spanish civil law; orders and decrees of the provisional government of Texas... Second Edition.
St. Louis: The Gilbert Book Co., 1891.

Volume 1, page 43.

3. March 26, 1834, Section 1, Article 2. Reprinted in
John Sayles and Henry Sayles, compilers.
Early laws of Texas...Second Edition.
St. Louis: The Gilbert Book Co., 1891.

Volume 1, page 97.

regards Furness

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

"Good evening Cactus You asked about I.E., I am sorry but his identity must remain secret for a while, I hope that you understand."

I certainly do! If you were to expose his identity prematurely, one of the scalywags on this site might be tempted to make some sort of example of him. That would probably be the end of a valuable source. I think this is a secret worth keeping away from people like bowman.

After all, a little knowledge can be a vewy dangewous thing.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good afternoon Furness; For rough field usage in the 15-1600's one can consider a vara as roughly a meter. The codo precedes the Vara as roughly 1/2 a vara. It was in a transitional phase about the time of Tayopa.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Furness]

Hello Jose,

many thanks for the explanation, are the measurements on the map accurate or have you found any where perhaps the priests used rack of the eye, because that looks like pretty rough country to measure,
OT in another post yes, i also would like to read your tales and memories i enjoy most of the sensible posts on here, and it's part of history that we didn't do at school,

regards

Furness,
(John) as i realise it's not on my profile,?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening John: thank you for the confidence. I rather suspect that they used simple triangulation for their measurements. As you say, it certainly couldn't be paced off.

What has tended to be passed off, and hasn't been explained. How can 7 mines be within 700 - 800 meters from the door of the church?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Infosponge]

Good evening Don Jose,

Good evening Cactus You asked about I.E., I am sorry but his identity must remain secret for a while, I hope that you understand.

Don Jose de La Mancha

I happen to know that "I.E." worked in lockstep with "E.G." Furthermore, whenever the subject comes up no one should use anything but their initials!

Sincerely,

Infosponge