✅ SOLVED Lynching photgraph

[oldbattleaxe]

While I have the historical experts on a roll. What would you think was going on here? Mexican American War of a soldier or? Just some thoughts thats all ?

 

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[Tpmetal]

I’m still unconvinced.

OK, the lynch-mob are hauling the guy up, so that supports a presumption he’s being hanged rather than has been hung. There is also a shallow tangential angle between the telegraph pole and the noose rope, so it must be swinging.

However it must be swinging very gently because the picture is pretty sharp. Note how sharp the shadow of his arm is on the pole too. I would suggest that the reason why the lynch mob look to be in such wooden postures is that they’re been lined up in a single plane of focus and told to stand still for reasons related to the limitations of film sensitivity and camera shutter speed in the age when the pic was taken.

Those same limitations apply to the ‘victim’ too. He can’t be moving in anything more than a very gentle sway. If he was being hung, surely he’d be struggling, creating more movement and more blur? There’s no sign of that at all. Look at his legs too. Sharp. No sign of movement and strapping him above the knees wouldn’t be enough to completely restrict the movement of a struggling victim.

Then look at his face. Mouth closed and no particular sign of distress. Wouldn’t he be struggling for breath? Uttering some noises of distress?

View attachment 1807352 View attachment 1807353

also the noose knot is not hanging as it should. it appears to stick to the side instead of straight under tension as it should. It also appears the rope goes under his shirt. I think for sure staged as well, and not staged with a real dead guy.

 

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[Machkin]

The shadows (red line) of the trees (yellow circle) should be oriented the same as the shadow of the individuals on the ground.

 

[devldog]

I completely agree with everything you said. My issue with it is that people make mistakes, which means some small number of people have been convicted of crimes they didn't commit. DNA evidence has exonerated some people after their execution. You can't un-kill someone. If the choices are killing Ted Bundy along with a few innocent people, or paying for Ted's lunch, I'll buy his lunch.

Don't mean to start any big debates though, just my two cents...

Years ago, there wasn't such a thing as DNA. Cell phones with cameras also wasn't owned by a Great majority of Americans, plus security cameras on a majority of business' s and street corners. I'm not for capital punishment for jay walkers, but for these monsters that have committed brutal crimes and has been proven guilty in a court of law. If we continue putting hardened criminals in prison for life, we will Never have enough prisons. A good scientific comparison, would be like attempting to pour a gallon of water into a pint jar...it just won't work, and hasn't for years. JMHO

 

[HuntinDog]

As for the picture... I vote staged.
For the other... Spare the Switch, Spoil the Child.
Works for me, without a "stick" there is no consequence to their crime.

 

[oldbattleaxe]

There is a lot of thinking going on here. You all make good points. I have a hard time thinking that this picture was staged. A back drop would have been made. They definitely look like soldiers dating to the 1880's time line. The shadow theory makes a good point. Could the hill be on a different angle that would make the shadows fall in another direction? I am not sure if the military would allow a staged scene like this. It would go against military ethics. There looks to be an officer on the left. Would he allow a staged scene like this that could result in a Court Marshal? Ether way that could happen since a camera was on scene. I am not convinced either way.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Since there were no shortage of criminals and no shortage of dead bodies, I would presume its real. Although its likely they are posing for the photograph and he is most likely already dead.. The rope may even be under his shoulders, under his shirt. Not sure where he is pointing or why. Having hung many deer, it doesn't look like the best choice of trees, and a telephone pole would seem a poor choice. He may be concerned about the branch or cross arm the rope is on. Knowing how hard it is to raise a deer that high, it looks as if the 3 guys are working hard to get him up high enough and stay still enough for a good photo. I think its a very cool piece of history. Even if staged, it doesn't mean its not authentic. . It would be even cooler to identify the participants.

 

[creskol]

I just noticed the guy hanging has his legs tied together. too!

 

[Red-Coat]

You didn't just snap off photographs in 1880. It was a process and you had to hold perfectly still for upwards of a minute. This is why no one ever smiles in "old tyme" photographs. If this were taken "in situ" as the hanging actually happened - There would be a lot of blurred faces and double exposures. As it is - everyone can be made out quite clearly. I think this is a staged picture taken at a much later date given the clarity of the image. Even if those guys were trying to stay perfectly still - hoisting up the weight of an adult male, holding still and getting this kind of clarity without blurring would have been pretty amazing for an 1880s era photography. This picture would seem to indicate a much faster shutter speed and having been shot onto film rather than developed onto a tin or metal plate. Camera film had only recently been developed by Kodak in 1880, was experimental and would have been very expensive. Most photographers would still have been doing photography with plate development. Just my two cents.

While I stand by what I said in an earlier post about the lack of blurred movement and suspiciously sharp image of an apparently non-struggling man being hoisted to his death, the above at least is not factually correct.

We don’t know for sure when this picture was taken, but Eastman Kodak brought photography to the masses with their fixed-focus, single shutter speed Box Camera in 1888. By about 1840, exposure times had been reduced to about 20 seconds (rather than ‘upwards of a minute’) and then, for professionals in the field, there was a major advance with the invention of the gelatin dry plate in 1871. For the first time, tripods were no longer necessary (although they still helped and were widely used) and candid photography was a realistic possibility. Even then, however, the exposures weren’t rapid enough to freeze a moving subject without some blur (and If you wanted a sharp picture you still had to pose it). That’s what’s suspicious about the picture.

Personally, I don’t subscribe to the ‘painted backdrop’ theory, but the picture does look like it has been taken by a professional with arrangement of the subjects for maximum drama and sharpness of the end result. Perhaps a photographer from a news agency.

It’s either a real hanging or it’s staged. If it’s real, why is there no visible movement on the captured image? ‘Staged’ can mean the later ‘re-hanging’ of someone already dead for the purposes of getting a dramatic picture (that certainly happened on occasions) or completely created as a mock event with someone playing the part of the victim. I’m still going with the latter based on the various clues from the unnatural posture of the person being strung up.

 

[creskol]

The guy hanging may be the photographer .. Guilty of distributing Fake News!

 

[Red-Coat]

To your point - not only do we not know the year the picture was taken- we don't know the model of camera the picture was taken with or medium it was shot on - so your theories that it was a 20 second shutter speed or utilized gelatin plates is - well - sure - maybe. Or maybe not. My point was that you didn't whip out your cell phone or a handy cam and just snap a crystal clear picture. I was speaking generally and from experience having worked with a photographer who utilizes period authentic, late 1800s photography gear. I think we're both in agreement that it would have been difficult to pull off such a clear shot if this were taken candidly. I also agree with you that the posture of the body is weird and it almost looks like the rope is being run up the back of the shirt but that's just speculation on my part.

I didn't propose a theory on what equipment was being used, or when the picture was taken. I was commenting on your take of the technology available at the time you think the picture was taken.

You proposed a date of 1880 and said "you didn't just snap off photographs in 1880. It was a process and you had to hold perfectly still for upwards of a minute".

That's factually incorrect. As I said, the invention of the gelatin dry plate in 1871 made this no longer necessary and candid pictures of moving subjects were perfectly possible (albeit, as I said, not with the degree of sharpness we see in the hanging picture) for professional photographers.

Yes early film (as opposed to plates) would have been experimental, expensive and not widely available in 1880 but it only took until 1888 for that to change dramatically, courtesy of Eastman Kodak with a single-shutter speed camera which also didn't require long exposures and was widely available to the general public.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Yea the more I look at it, the more I feel (just as I typed earlier) that the rope is under his shirt and up under his armpits. However that doesnt mean he is alive. I agree with the re-enactment theory.. EDIT: I just realized tpmetal first mentioned about the rope under his shirt.

 

[cw0909]

looking more and rethinking this
did the us Calvary execute without a trial in an unofficial
place for an execution
why a reenactment by what looks like the us Calvary

rethinking not sure anyone would go to the trouble of period
1890s uniforms for a reenactment for a movie

maybe it was some kind of statement or a joke from 1890s
maybe he is not dead some kind of stunt 1890s style

looking at the the man hanging, his face shows no distress,
at least not the kind ive seen in other lynching imgs. and
his left arm seems held up in that position,by him/some of
the bindings and his eyes are covered by a handkerchief,no
messy hair. the rope does seem to be under shirt and arm

oldbattleaxe is there any writing on back of pic or frame

 

[smokeythecat]

I also think this is 1880's or 1890's American uniforms, all the folks are caucasians. Look how nice the dead guy's hair is. I don't know if it's real or staged, looks staged. Notice also the dead guy is not wearing the same uniform.

 

[Idahodutch]

Yea the more I look at it, the more I feel (just as I typed earlier) that the rope is under his shirt and up under his armpits. However that doesnt mean he is alive. I agree with the re-enactment theory.. EDIT: I just realized tpmetal first mentioned about the rope under his shirt.

View attachment 1807792

Is the guy that is holding onto the rope. . . Slim Pickens?

 

[OldSowBreath]

Photo real but staged after the fact. Shadows correct. Three soldiers are unusually calm and almost smiling while others animated. Deceased not moving when he should have been jerking around for that short of a haul. Photographer bent Railroad sign to get it into scene. Blindfold may have been added post mortem. Note gunshot wound or bad bruise on cheek.

 

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[civil_war22]

I’ll be honest, after almost 9 nears in law enforcement for 3 different departments, as well as a crime scene analyst for 2 years, I can say this after seeing many suicides by a hanging, as well as historical photos of hangings, and numerous dead bodies, the man on the pole looks to have been deceased prior to this photograph. With the lack of neck stretching or the mouth being open, tongue sticking out. Also to note there is no visible signs of petechial hemorrhaging on the eyes during which someone is strangled their eyes open up, and tiny capillaries burst in their eyes, lips, or other area of the skin. Almost 90% of all hangings I’ve seen whether it’s judicial or suicide have resulted in the results above, none of which we see here. There does appear to be some trauma to the face, but that I believe was done antemortem. The scene looks staged as far as the hanging goes. As others have said the rope looks to be under the man’s shirt, under his arms, and behind his neck. Not saying you can’t die from having your hands tied behind your back, and you suspended in that manner because it has happened. In cases of auto erotica asphyxiation, as well as a handcuffed subject dying due to the way the hands are tied behind the back. I’ve also seen folks die after being arrested because their arms were behind their back, and they had their head lowered causing asphyxiation. I just don’t believe that’s the case here, I think the guy was strung up post mortem to pose as a recently hung suspect

 

[smallfoot]

We have a bunch of sharp eyed people here and many valid points being made. I think it was staged post-mortem also. Some things bother me about the setting. Looks to be out in the boonies by the background. Looks to be the rails of the track in the background. Got a crossing sign over on the left and not really in a place I would think the crossing sign would be for those tracks. Are they standing in the road? Did every little podunk dirt road have a RR crossing sign in the 1800s?

 

[smallfoot]

Some further dating could have been done if the top of the pole was visible also. An early telegraph pole may have only had 2 wires on insulators on the pole itself. Multi-line setups would have had cross arms. The types of insulators used would have clued us to a date range!

 

[cw0909]

R R crossing sign, AKA crossbuck
some info on the crossbuck, from reading the sign in this img was standard
at most large station crossings, up to early 1900s
https://www.massmoments.org/moment-details/first-train-reaches-provincetown.html

the crossbuck started to become standard and is still in use,with variations
lights, 2 track combo of
https://www.okhistory.org/publications/enc/entry.php?entry=RA004

info in book
https://books.google.com/books?id=r...A146#v=onepage&q=crossbuck sign patent&f=true

https://books.google.com/books?id=2...book 1900&pg=PA174#v=onepage&q=sawbuck&f=true