Lost galleon of the desert and San felepe wash finds

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi My Buddy Crow,, An Indian, a Pima I believe, tol me that it is in the Pinacates in Mexico. That once when it was exposed to an extent, thy found Blue design, porcelin dishes, -- Manilla Trade? -- but it was too much work to excavate down into the hull. When they went back later, it was gone.

 

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[Crow]

Hello Don Jose. Possible however there could a number of scenarios of how the porcelain got there?

Crow

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

hi Crow, true but that simple statement -----? Ceramic dishes were relatively rare in that period, in fact dishes were, you simply ate out of the common cooking vessel.

 

[Oroblanco]

hi Crow, true but that simple statement -----? Ceramic dishes were relatively rare in that period, in fact dishes were, you simply ate out of the common cooking vessel.

Not to be a wet blanket to this particular theory, but the pearl ship was a built-in-Mexico ship, made for the specific task of pearl fishing, unlikely to have any kind of fancy dishes for captain de Iturbe and his crew; more likely it will turn out to be very plain, iron or pewter or clay pots. Remember this was a caravelle, not a Spanish Manila Galleon, much smaller and correct for the task of pearl fishing. I would have to doubt that find of china would be related to Juan de Iturbe and his cargo of rare pearls.

Please do continue, don't let a skeptic stall you!
Oroblanco

 

[Crow]

Not to be a wet blanket to this particular theory, but the pearl ship was a built-in-Mexico ship, made for the specific task of pearl fishing, unlikely to have any kind of fancy dishes for captain de Iturbe and his crew; more likely it will turn out to be very plain, iron or pewter or clay pots. Remember this was a caravelle, not a Spanish Manila Galleon, much smaller and correct for the task of pearl fishing. I would have to doubt that find of china would be related to Juan de Iturbe and his cargo of rare pearls.

Please do continue, don't let a skeptic stall you!
Oroblanco

Hello Oro no you are correct it is a highly probable comment.

I suspect that what ever the shipwreck it was not a Manilla Galleon. In fact very few disappeared over the centuries of the trade. However other small trade vessels involved in coastal trade and smuggling such as small caravel could have brought some trade goods traded from Acapulco up the coast and perhaps wanting to trade with the mission settlements of Baja by was driven North by a hurricane wrecking on the then beach line. Another thought is the ship of Don Jose story could be an entirely different shipwreck than the Pearl ship?

Crow

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Crow, the nearest Manilla Galleon is at Bandera,Bay, cost Rico, under yea many meters of mud.

 

[Crow]

Don Jose what a nice place to being a bit of diving and searching for shipwreck.

Crow

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello Oro no you are correct it is a highly probable comment.

I suspect that what ever the shipwreck it was not a Manilla Galleon. In fact very few disappeared over the centuries of the trade. However other small trade vessels involved in coastal trade and smuggling such as small caravel could have brought some trade goods traded from Acapulco up the coast and perhaps wanting to trade with the mission settlements of Baja by was driven North by a hurricane wrecking on the then beach line. Another thought is the ship of Don Jose story could be an entirely different shipwreck than the Pearl ship?

Crow

HMMMM - another lost ship, like perhaps the last voyage of the pirate ship CONTENT, mayhaps?

The Last Voyage Of The Content Ship Lost in the Desert - DesertUSA

<many other links online, look up Cavenish, the Hugh Gallant etc>

The Content was a pirate vessel of sixty tons burthen, and supposedly sailed up the gulf of California never to return. This particular ship had already had successes in attacking Spanish shipping too, so finding imported Chinese china, would definitely be a hot clue.

Please do continue,
Oroblanco

 

[Crow]

HMMMM - another lost ship, like perhaps the last voyage of the pirate ship CONTENT, mayhaps?

The Last Voyage Of The Content Ship Lost in the Desert - DesertUSA

<many other links online, look up Cavenish, the Hugh Gallant etc>

The Content was a pirate vessel of sixty tons burthen, and supposedly sailed up the gulf of California never to return. This particular ship had already had successes in attacking Spanish shipping too, so finding imported Chinese china, would definitely be a hot clue.

Please do continue,
Oroblanco

Indeed reading through Thomas Cavendish capture of the manila Galleon Santa Anna they cherrypicked the cargo. 100 pounds of gold was divided between the Content and Desire. The Desire made it back to England. The content of course vanished. It may of be possible the the captain of the Content thought lower california was an island and sailed North up thtough the sea cortez only run around on a desert beach later over time the ship bacme a shipwreck lost in the dunes. The value of gold alone is around 1 million dollars if found? Not counting the possible value of the crates of porcelin from China.

Crow

 

[Isayhello2u]

Crow I always wondered if the ship that was said to be in the sand hills near Arizona's Pinacate mountain was the content by all rumors it was larger than the pearl ship and had china dishes.



btw Pegleglooker did a nice radio broadcast recently about the lost ship on the Death Valley Jim Program

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Crow is busy changing diapers, so I'll post my two cents.

The Indians always told me it was in the sand near the Mexican Pinacates, Sonora. But I haven't figured how ?? unless the area has changed radically..

 

[boogeyman]

Oldergoate,

The "Lost Ship of the Desert" referred to in all the magazine articles and stories was found many years ago. It is no secret locally to many people in the Brawley/El Centro Area.

One man used most of the aft section of the Caravelle to build an addition onto his house in the 1950s. It is my understanding that a small portion of the front section is still there, but usually lies under 20-30 feet of blow sand. I was told the whole story by more than a couple of people. I haven't had the chance to go to the spot where the ship sits (no treasure so not that important in the grand scheme).

Look in other thread on this subject to see a satellite pic of the site.

Mike

Hey Mike, was that the guy that had the corral made from some of the planking out back of his place?

 

[Steve Baldwin]

Hey Mike, was that the guy that had the corral made from some of the planking out back of his place?
[/QUOTE

You guys are confusing stories here. Mike has mentioned a ship buried in sand that was discovered by a guy who took some of the wood and used it to build a bar in his home. We tracked this person down and its BS. It never happened. We've also been to the location of this particular ship and there's nothing there. The other story Mike refers to is about a Spanish ship captained by Juan Iturbi, but that turned out to be wrong as well. We located accounts of Iturbi's travels and he never sailed up a water channel from the gulf. The main source for the Iturbi story is a fictional book published in 1939. As for the ship in which wood was taken from to make a corral, this is a solid story and my team has pinpointed where that particular ranch was and have received permission to excavate that area. The best evidence for the Lost ship story are the stories told by Indians before any "Treasure Magazines" were ever published and they were passed down orally. We have documented several such stories.

 

[gollum]

You pack of degenerates are looking at a story that evolved over about 15 years! It started with the BS Juan Iturbide Pearl Ship. That didn't have any info you could use to look for anything any way. There are A CRAP-TON of Salton Sink Lost Spanish/Viking Ship Stories. READ A FREAKING BOOK SOMETIME! LOL Iturbi was just the first. Another is supposed to be NorthWest of Borrego Springs, around Coyote Canyon/Desert Gardens. This is where the baskets of pearls come in when the old prospector took cover from a sandstorm. After the storm stripped off the sand, he saw he was protected by an old ship. He found baskets of pearls in the hold, but when he went back, the winds must have buried it again. Another BS Story. Another Lost Spanish Ship Story is the Norwegian Sounding Guy that had crops out by Cibola (IIRC) that supposedly found his ship underground on his farm and it supposedly had a buttload of precious jewels and pearls (Oroblanco knows that one best), but its another BS Story.

Now, ONE MORE TIME, for everybody that can't figure out how to read previous posts:

I was sent a message with some of the information, but I have had people swear all kinds of lies to me. A little more conversation, and I had all I needed to research. I had the name, the occupation (and his occupation was VERY SPECIFIC and easy to check), and I even got the location of the remainder of the CARAVELLE (about 60 feet, and never a Galleon). The finder took just the wood from the aft section and built a guest addition to his home in Brawley. Just the aft section because it was the ONLY straight wood on the thing. The ONLY reason I gave half a crap about that story, which I never really had a ton of faith in, was because I was out in the area ALL THE TIME any way, so why not. When I heard the truth, and no treasure, I was over it. Someone else can run with it and maybe become an Academic. I am watching my country circle the toilet, and people are arguing about a treasure story with no treasure! HAHAHA

I won't ever give out the name or addresses because I respect people's privacy. If you know, then you can easily find out.

What I have shared several times before is where I was told the actual location was. Here you go AGAIN:

Okay, So after a million times telling the same story, people get it so wrong. How does that happen? Why hasn't somebody gone out there with a GPR and find it. I think it is normally under about twenty feet of blow sand.

Enjoy - Mike

 

[Steve Baldwin]

You pack of degenerates are looking at a story that evolved over about 15 years! It started with the BS Juan Iturbide Pearl Ship. That didn't have any info you could use to look for anything any way. There are A CRAP-TON of Salton Sink Lost Spanish/Viking Ship Stories. READ A FREAKING BOOK SOMETIME! LOL Iturbi was just the first. Another is supposed to be NorthWest of Borrego Springs, around Coyote Canyon/Desert Gardens. This is where the baskets of pearls come in when the old prospector took cover from a sandstorm. After the storm stripped off the sand, he saw he was protected by an old ship. He found baskets of pearls in the hold, but when he went back, the winds must have buried it again. Another BS Story. Another Lost Spanish Ship Story is the Norwegian Sounding Guy that had crops out by Cibola (IIRC) that supposedly found his ship underground on his farm and it supposedly had a buttload of precious jewels and pearls (Oroblanco knows that one best), but its another BS Story.

Now, ONE MORE TIME, for everybody that can't figure out how to read previous posts:

I was sent a message with some of the information, but I have had people swear all kinds of lies to me. A little more conversation, and I had all I needed to research. I had the name, the occupation (and his occupation was VERY SPECIFIC and easy to check), and I even got the location of the remainder of the CARAVELLE (about 60 feet, and never a Galleon). The finder took just the wood from the aft section and built a guest addition to his home in Brawley. Just the aft section because it was the ONLY straight wood on the thing. The ONLY reason I gave half a crap about that story, which I never really had a ton of faith in, was because I was out in the area ALL THE TIME any way, so why not. When I heard the truth, and no treasure, I was over it. Someone else can run with it and maybe become an Academic. I am watching my country circle the toilet, and people are arguing about a treasure story with no treasure! HAHAHA

I won't ever give out the name or addresses because I respect people's privacy. If you know, then you can easily find out.

What I have shared several times before is where I was told the actual location was. Here you go AGAIN:
View attachment 2158513

Okay, So after a million times telling the same story, people get it so wrong. How does that happen? Why hasn't somebody gone out there with a GPR and find it. I think it is normally under about twenty feet of blow sand.

Enjoy - Mike

I'm glad you finally responded Mike. I figured if I provoked you enough, you would post something! At least I know you haven't kicked the bucket. You don't know me but I worked with John Grasson for years on the Lost Ship story and I've inherited all his files after he passed away. We are talking about a lot of stuff! I know you guys were friends and I'm sure you miss him like I do. He was a "one of a kind." But you are correct that there is a lot of BS surrounding the Lost Ship story. You are also correct that there is probably no treasure involved. My motive for spending years researching this story is because I'm a history buff and if a European ship did visit what is now Imperial Valley over 300 years ago, it rewrites the whole history of that region.

Regarding Capt. Iturbi, all the Lost Ship book/magazine stories about Iturbi and his pearling ship can be traced to a 1939 fictional book. We know that because there are no stories about Iturbi until after that book was published. Moreover, both John and I scoured the travel accounts from Iturbi's crew and there's no evidence he sailed up that water channel to Lake Cahuilla. Nor did he die there. In fact he went on to have an illustrious career after that.

Yes, there are many stories about lost ships in the desert but many of them have to do with ships that were pulled away from their moorings in Port Isabel near the Colorado delta in the late 1800's and a storm and tidal bores then washed these adrift ships up the various rivers, like the Hardy river. To this day, you can find wrecks of these ships scattered all over the Laguna Salada and south, but these are ships from the late 1800's and nothing to get excited about.

The "Old Prospector" story you mentioned is about a desert rat named Butcherknife Ike. He was a real person and he may have found the wreckage of a ship. However, he never found any pearls and he saw the wreckage in the Split Mt. Canyon area not Coyote Canyon. We've tracked down descendants of the family who used to allow him to camp out on their property and they confirmed he never found any treasure. He is long gone and no one has ever been able to corroborate his story.

The Norwegian guy you refer to is Nels Jacobson and he was a real rancher and his story may actually be the best documented story. We have obtained an audio tape of a 1966 interview with Jacobson's former ranch hand. This ranch hand was in his 80's at the time but gave many details about finding the wreckage of a ship on the property and using some of the word to build a pig pen. We also know that Mrs. Jacobson did find some jewels in small chest found deep inside the wreckage and that Nels took the rubies to L.A. and sold them to a pawn shop. We've confirmed that the pawn ship in question did exist. We also know that a short time later, Nels sold his ranch and moved to L.A. and lived very well the rest of his life. After many years of digging, we have identified where this property was and have received permission to excavate the area where we think remnants of the ship may still be buried a few feet underground. However, we don't know if this ship was THE "lost ship of the Desert" from the 16th century or a more modern smaller ship that a storm washed up the New River, which flows right next to the Jacobson farm.

I think the most interesting and credible stories are some stories we've traced to Indians from the 1800's. We give these stories more credibility because they were around before the "lost treasure" books, magazines were published and before all the sensationalism hit. My team does think that sometime between 1600 and 1700, a European ship from either England, Holland or Spain did sail up a water channel that geologists we've interviewed believe existed prior to 1700, but came and went several times over the last 1,000 years. This water channel did connect at times to Lake Cahuilla and when a ship or ships sailed up this channel, it certainly created some vivid Indian stories. Geologists also tell us the lake was very unstable in terms of the sea level and this may have been the result of earth quake activity in the area. In any case, we believe at least one ship was grounded and that this is the "Grand daddy" of all the lost ship stories. And yes, there could have been more than one ship involved.

Finally, a few words about the guy who found a ship and used it to build something in his house. Our sources told us he was a former soft drink company distributor who worked in Brawley and who is now retired and still alive. We tracked him down and actually visited him at his home. He had heard about the lost ship story but denied finding ship wreckage or using any wood from a ship to build anything in his house. We have checked the location where ship remnants are allegedly buried under the sand dunes but without GPR, there's no way anyone is able to detect wood that far below the surface. I would like to compare notes with you about this story Mike. Can you email me at [email protected]?

 

[gollum]

I'm glad you finally responded Mike. I figured if I provoked you enough, you would post something! At least I know you haven't kicked the bucket. You don't know me but I worked with John Grasson for years on the Lost Ship story and I've inherited all his files after he passed away. We are talking about a lot of stuff! I know you guys were friends and I'm sure you miss him like I do. He was a "one of a kind." But you are correct that there is a lot of BS surrounding the Lost Ship story. You are also correct that there is probably no treasure involved. My motive for spending years researching this story is because I'm a history buff and if a European ship did visit what is now Imperial Valley over 300 years ago, it rewrites the whole history of that region.

Regarding Capt. Iturbi, all the Lost Ship book/magazine stories about Iturbi and his pearling ship can be traced to a 1939 fictional book. We know that because there are no stories about Iturbi until after that book was published. Moreover, both John and I scoured the travel accounts from Iturbi's crew and there's no evidence he sailed up that water channel to Lake Cahuilla. Nor did he die there. In fact he went on to have an illustrious career after that.

Yes, there are many stories about lost ships in the desert but many of them have to do with ships that were pulled away from their moorings in Port Isabel near the Colorado delta in the late 1800's and a storm and tidal bores then washed these adrift ships up the various rivers, like the Hardy river. To this day, you can find wrecks of these ships scattered all over the Laguna Salada and south, but these are ships from the late 1800's and nothing to get excited about.

The "Old Prospector" story you mentioned is about a desert rat named Butcherknife Ike. He was a real person and he may have found the wreckage of a ship. However, he never found any pearls and he saw the wreckage in the Split Mt. Canyon area not Coyote Canyon. We've tracked down descendants of the family who used to allow him to camp out on their property and they confirmed he never found any treasure. He is long gone and no one has ever been able to corroborate his story.

The Norwegian guy you refer to is Nels Jacobson and he was a real rancher and his story may actually be the best documented story. We have obtained an audio tape of a 1966 interview with Jacobson's former ranch hand. This ranch hand was in his 80's at the time but gave many details about finding the wreckage of a ship on the property and using some of the word to build a pig pen. We also know that Mrs. Jacobson did find some jewels in small chest found deep inside the wreckage and that Nels took the rubies to L.A. and sold them to a pawn shop. We've confirmed that the pawn ship in question did exist. We also know that a short time later, Nels sold his ranch and moved to L.A. and lived very well the rest of his life. After many years of digging, we have identified where this property was and have received permission to excavate the area where we think remnants of the ship may still be buried a few feet underground. However, we don't know if this ship was THE "lost ship of the Desert" from the 16th century or a more modern smaller ship that a storm washed up the New River, which flows right next to the Jacobson farm.

I think the most interesting and credible stories are some stories we've traced to Indians from the 1800's. We give these stories more credibility because they were around before the "lost treasure" books, magazines were published and before all the sensationalism hit. My team does think that sometime between 1600 and 1700, a European ship from either England, Holland or Spain did sail up a water channel that geologists we've interviewed believe existed prior to 1700, but came and went several times over the last 1,000 years. This water channel did connect at times to Lake Cahuilla and when a ship or ships sailed up this channel, it certainly created some vivid Indian stories. Geologists also tell us the lake was very unstable in terms of the sea level and this may have been the result of earth quake activity in the area. In any case, we believe at least one ship was grounded and that this is the "Grand daddy" of all the lost ship stories. And yes, there could have been more than one ship involved.

Finally, a few words about the guy who found a ship and used it to build something in his house. Our sources told us he was a former soft drink company distributor who worked in Brawley and who is now retired and still alive. We tracked him down and actually visited him at his home. He had heard about the lost ship story but denied finding ship wreckage or using any wood from a ship to build anything in his house. We have checked the location where ship remnants are allegedly buried under the sand dunes but without GPR, there's no way anyone is able to detect wood that far below the surface. I would like to compare notes with you about this story Mike. Can you email me at [email protected]?

Yeah, John was a good guy. Sad thing. Looks like we may have had the same guy. HAHAHA Sure, I'll email you. Keep one thing in mind though, when it comes to people who aren't Treasure Hunters that have had run-ins with historical things. From what I remember, he was very nervous about being found and asked about taking wood off of an historically important artifact (60 ft Caravelle) to use for his guest addition. Name is S.O. Its not at the K***N House. It is (IIRC) at the address previous to that (I don't remember if it was the CA** house or the third one).

Mike

 

[Steve Baldwin]

Yeah, John was a good guy. Sad thing. Looks like we may have had the same guy. HAHAHA Sure, I'll email you. Keep one thing in mind though, when it comes to people who aren't Treasure Hunters that have had run-ins with historical things. From what I remember, he was very nervous about being found and asked about taking wood off of an historically important artifact (60 ft Caravelle) to use for his guest addition. Name is S.O. Its not at the K***N House. It is (IIRC) at the address previous to that (I don't remember if it was the CA** house or the third one).

Mike

Yes, it was S.O. and I did find him at the "K" house. I met with him and his wife "D." Are you saying he owned another house previous to where I was and that's where the woodwork is? And yes, he could be lying to me as he may fear he violated the Antiquities Act, but I did tell him that I had no intention of exposing his identify but to simply look at the wood and, if possible, take a sample so I could have it tested to see how old it was. But he didn't crack and kept maintaining he knew nothing about taking any wood from a ship site. They were nice and we sat on his porch drinking cokes. Maybe he thought I was an undercover park ranger or something. If he was lying to me, it was well done. I would like to email with you privately to see what else you know about S.O. and why you think he's the guy.

 

[gollum]

Yes, it was S.O. and I did find him at the "K" house. I met with him and his wife "D." Are you saying he owned another house previous to where I was and that's where the woodwork is? And yes, he could be lying to me as he may fear he violated the Antiquities Act, but I did tell him that I had no intention of exposing his identify but to simply look at the wood and, if possible, take a sample so I could have it tested to see how old it was. But he didn't crack and kept maintaining he knew nothing about taking any wood from a ship site. They were nice and we sat on his porch drinking cokes. Maybe he thought I was an undercover park ranger or something. If he was lying to me, it was well done. I would like to email with you privately to see what else you know about S.O. and why you think he's the guy.

My guess is that he didn't give a crap about it, until some people started finding him forty or so years later. My guess is that someone met with him, then made the STUPID MOVE, and started telling him how important this wreck was, and how it was historically important, and scared the s**t out of the poor guy, because he knows he stripped that wood off an historically important artifact. HE ALSO KNOWS HE LIVES IN CALIFORNIA! hahaha I was told by a BLM Employee I knew (Anza-Borrego) that if there was a $20 gold piece laying on the ground in the Park, the state of Cali would rather see that coin dissolve into molecules rather than let you pick it up! Think they'd find a way to go after him 50+ years later? As long as he's not trying to run for President as a Republican ....................................

Mike

 

[Steve Baldwin]

My guess is that he didn't give a crap about it, until some people started finding him forty or so years later. My guess is that someone met with him, then made the STUPID MOVE, and started telling him how important this wreck was, and how it was historically important, and scared the s**t out of the poor guy, because he knows he stripped that wood off an historically important artifact. HE ALSO KNOWS HE LIVES IN CALIFORNIA! hahaha I was told by a BLM Employee I knew (Anza-Borrego) that if there was a $20 gold piece laying on the ground in the Park, the state of Cali would rather see that coin dissolve into molecules rather than let you pick it up! Think they'd find a way to go after him 50+ years later? As long as he's not trying to run for President as a Republican ....................................

Mike

Yeah, really, but its hard to believe the SS would allow a shooter to casually climb onto the roof of a building within shooting range. Something has gone terribly wrong with the SS. Anyway, I got your email and it lists two previous addresses; Which one do you think is the house with the wood? And does Sal still own the previous house or do you know? If Sal doesn't own the previous house, then I should figure out who the new owner is and approach him.

Steve