Lost Dutchman Mine

E

elkman13

Full Member
Aug 24, 2003
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Was doing a goggle " lost hiker found new Mexico". Last from bottom 1st page was a story about the Lost Dutchman Mine. It was an article in Desertusa.com. Having problems getting to the web with out goggle. Good updated story. May be someone can get at the web page better than I'm doing.
 

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Tried that before? ??? Works now if I do a search for lost dutchman. :)
Tks
 

The Dutchman was located in 82'.........Illegal Dig Range. The Apache buried it in the winter of 1893. Until the Arizona government raises the mining limitations, it might as well have never existed. Looks like this time the coyote turned around and bit itself in the ass. ::) Twisted
 

Twisted Fork said:
The Dutchman was located in 82'.........Illegal Dig Range. The Apache buried it in the winter of 1893. Until the Arizona government raises the mining limitations, it might as well have never existed. Looks like this time the coyote turned around and bit itself in the ass. ::) Twisted
Click to expand...

There's a heap of folks on the Lost Dutchman Mine section of the forum that would disagree with you that it was found. I'm just starting to get into reading up on the legend - do you have references you can share to support the fact that it was found in '82?
 

Twisted Fork said:
The Dutchman was located in 82'.........Illegal Dig Range. The Apache buried it in the winter of 1893. Until the Arizona government raises the mining limitations, it might as well have never existed. Looks like this time the coyote turned around and bit itself in the ass. ::) Twisted
Click to expand...

TF,

There have been over 150 people who have claimed to have found the LDM. Not one of them (with the exception of old Jacob Waltz himself) has ever pulled any appreciable amounts of gold from there.

I agree with Cubfan that there are a lot of folks who will take issue with your statement. I don't know where you live TF (I think Utah), but many of the folks who post in the LDM (Lost Dutchman Mine) Section are currently living in Apache Junction, AZ (Superstition Mts. adjacent).

Now I am just waiting for the 3000 word ramble from Blindbowman about how HE found the LDM. Tick, Tick, Tick.................

Best-Mike
 

1847PeraltasWitch.jpg


Look Familiar? It's buried. You won't find it unless you know what your looking for, and it ain't gold sign. Like Jacob said, "No miner will find my mine." And that was before the Apache buried it. Good Luck!
 

I don't know all the stories about the LDM and as I said, I'm just getting started reading about it. I'm assuming the picture you posted is a chunk of ore resembling what the LDM gold is supposed to be (rich gold ore in rose quartz outcropping?) - I didn't think there was any of Waltz's original ore left (only some items supposedly made from it).

Is this something you've found or someone you know has found, or was it displayed when it was supposedly discovered back in 1982? Why do you think it's been buried?

Just trying to validate the information you've given - interesting.
 

To be honest with you, to much weird stuff has happened in connection with that location; believe me when I say it is guarded by the spirits of madass dead entities . I not looking for any credit here nor there; I'm just stating that it was found and that there is no sign of it's existence unless you are spot on the location with the right map. The Mexican miners left sign on approach, but little or none on location. They also took the time to carefully manicure a large area around the mine and any others of real value in order to protect it from prospectors French or otherwise. The photo posted is a signification stone left behind by the Peraltas, and positioned in a manner to relocate the dig in case it was lost through one natural element or the other. All Spanish mines are backed up with this stone marker system for the same reason. Still, it is a beautiful and mysterious legend any way you look at it. Twisted
 

Twisted Fork said:
To be honest with you, to much weird stuff has happened in connection with that location; believe me when I say it is guarded by the spirits of madass dead entities . I not looking for any credit here nor there; I'm just stating that it was found and that there is no sign of it's existence unless you are spot on the location with the right map. The Mexican miners left sign on approach, but little or none on location. They also took the time to carefully manicure a large area around the mine and any others of real value in order to protect it from prospectors French or otherwise. The photo posted is a signification stone left behind by the Peraltas, and positioned in a manner to relocate the dig in case it was lost through one natural element or the other. All Spanish mines are backed up with this stone marker system for the same reason. Still, it is a beautiful and mysterious legend any way you look at it. Twisted
Click to expand...

Interesting information - I understand your hesitancy to give out any specific facts, but you have to admit that when you make a specific statement like you did about it being found in 1982 it's going to raise some speculation and questions.

As they say, "inquiring minds want to know." :)

If you feel so motivated, I'd be very interested to hear more about what you know (send me a PM if you like). I have no idea if/when I'll ever actually get a chance to visit the Superstitions - as of now, I'm just fascinated by the legend and the stores surrounding it.

If you would rather not share any information, I understand that as well.
 

The Indian legend is more accurate here. "Three days ride towards the rising sun are three red hills," not three red mountains. This puts it in the Tontos and not where they are looking for it. The Dutchman tour takes you into the heart of the land form map system, and no where near the mine. That area describes point to point directions using the "sequences" of earmarked shapes and glyph positions on a giant scale, through reference on an exploded scale. Most map pictures have a little "legend" box down in the corner. In this case it's the opposite; The little box is the mine location map, and the big picture around it is the Weaver's Needle area or legend. All of the mines are put together this way. Think like a map maker or a scout first, and a prospector last of all. A hat shaped peak is the key. The old military trail went fort to fort, it did not end in the middle of nowhere. What is missing is the chain of springs lost in the building of the dam. Twisted
 

Twisted Fork said:
The Indian legend is more accurate here. "Three days ride towards the rising sun are three red hills," not three red mountains. This puts it in the Tontos and not where they are looking for it. The Dutchman tour takes you into the heart of the land form map system, and no where near the mine. That area describes point to point directions using the "sequences" of earmarked shapes and glyph positions on a giant scale, through reference on an exploded scale. Most map pictures have a little "legend" box down in the corner. In this case it's the opposite; The little box is the mine location map, and the big picture around it is the Weaver's Needle area or legend. All of the mines are put together this way. Think like a map maker or a scout first, and a prospector last of all. A hat shaped peak is the key. The old military trail went fort to fort, it did not end in the middle of nowhere. What is missing is the chain of springs lost in the building of the dam. Twisted
Click to expand...

Interesting - one thing keeps sticking in my head though. If Jacob Waltz supposedly tried to give directions to Julia and Rhinehart before he died, then why wouldn't they have ended up looking in the location you suggest rather than where they did? It's not like they casually went out looking for his mine/caches, they seemed pretty direct as to where they wanted to look, so I believe they had a good reason for being there.
 

So true.....and he had an even better reason for it elsewhere. Legends can and usually are written with some air for the romantic. I would say if it wasn't for his gold, those two would have been creeping around someone else's bed and he knew it. At least he didn't send them to their death where the Apache were on guard. Twisted
 

If you have read Brewer's book on
the KGC, you will come to the conclusion
that Waltz was burying gold-not digging it.

Howso
 

Albert Osborn said:
If you have read Brewer's book on
the KGC, you will come to the conclusion
that Waltz was burying gold-not digging it.

Howso
Click to expand...

Hey old buddy,

How are you doing? I haven't talked to you in a while.
I just wanted to say howdy ;D

Timberwolf
 

Books are cool...How many of them are there now? I am a direct descendant of an old German who was directly involved in the scenario. There were actually three Germans involved at the site; Jacob Waltz, Joseph Wiser, and George Adams. Same summer, same dig, same results; madness and death. The Apache buried it in 1893; good luck!
 

Twisted Fork said:
Books are cool...How many of them are there now? I am a direct descendant of an old German who was directly involved in the scenario. There were actually three Germans involved at the site; Jacob Waltz, Joseph Wiser, and George Adams. Same summer, same dig, same results; madness and death. The Apache buried it in 1893; good luck!
Click to expand...

I'm certainly far from being an expert on the LDM, but I haven't come across any connection between Waltz and any George Adams yet. The only "Adams" references I've seen related to gold are the "Lost Adams Diggings" supposedly located somewhere in New Mexico.

Your comment about "same summer, same dig, same results" is odd too because from what I've found, Waltz collected his gold (whether from a mine or cache) over a period of years, not just one summer. Death certainly happend to both Waltz and Weiser (Jacob was his first name I believe), but madness may be a bit of a stretch. Waltz died from pneumonia brought on by exposure during a flood (nothing to do with his mining), while Weiser was supposedly killed by Apaches.

I don't doubt the possibility at all that the Apaches buried the vein/mine (if there really was one). Let's face it, they weren't a particularily friendly native american tribe and I'm sure the white man intruding on "their" land probably ticked them off tremendously. I'm sure they knew the lure of gold would keep bringing more people out there, and if they could keep people from finding any, they probably hoped eventually nobody would come back out.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to know that whatever the source of Waltz's gold was is buried beneath tons of rock and dirt - there have been earthquakes out that way as well over the years.

I don't mean to come off as a doubting Thomas, but other than family legends and word of mouth, have you been able to come up with any real evidence that your decendant was involved?

Interesting twist.
 

Greetings,

Can you provide any further detail(s) to the report of someone finding the LDM in '82? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco
 

I fully realize that all of us are working with a legend of great controversy, but even with as broad a spectrum to reference from, it like all legends it is based on at least a few facts. The most important facts in circulation begin with the mine originating with the Apache who it is believed are the outcasts of the Aztec civilization. They were hunted by their own people and this is why they were so well tuned to the Superstition Mountains; the Superstitions being the northern gates leading into the homelands of the distant past, Utah and beyond. Left in the wide open, Peralta and his boys find the canyon and soon have markers and mapping put together under the traditions of their Masonic Jesuit forefathers. In the year 1883, two German prospectors stumble onto the location and find the mine as they are drawn to it via the sounds of rock picks at work. Here the legend begins to wander. Some say Peralta descendants were at work and were killed, but one way or the other Waltz and Wiser find a pit funnel on a slope with a chimney of rose quartz and gold centered in a pool of pelleted wire gold similar to rice. After working the mine for a short while, the two Germans are surprised and ambushed by Apache guards. Wiser is killed on location , but Waltz manages to slip from view in the nick of time. These two were best of friends since some time in their youth and Wiser's passing dealt a blow on Waltz of which he never recovered from. He buried his friend, concealed their newly prepared caches and headed back to Phoenix with enough ore to get him through. In this same year, another German by the name of George Adams who had also worked on the same canal system in the desert as Waltz and Wiser, came into the old calvary saloon in Show Low with two pack horses loaded down with chunks of rose quartz and gold wire of which he had recovered at the base of a tributary waterfall during a flash flood. This was the ore cache from the same mine and was only a stones throw away from the pit. Back in Phoenix, Waltz suffered a near nervous breakdown after his experiences at the mine and did not return until 10 years later. When he did, he removed gold from one of the cache sites he and his buddy had put together. This upset him even more to again experience the once violent scene of 10 years previous, and with that he never returned again. However, Adams did; 5 times to be exact. Through these trips of 1883, Adams lost 8 friends to Apache arrows and barely escaped with his own life each time. During that summer, they had located the mine and had begun a short lived plan for a cabin site nearby. On his 5th and final trip, Adams himself was struck with an arrow in his abdomen and made it back to as far as the calvary saloon. He fell into the arms of one of my relatives; one who had recently become the German's new son in law. Adams died in Spanish Fork, Utah some years later. Apache legend states that the squaws buried the pit mine using baskets and landscaped it over in the winter of 1893, whilst the braves stood guard during this two month period. Thats as good as it gets guys. Twisted
 

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