Location of Aztec Gold

I have done some more thinking. My whole theory is based on trying to duplicate the thinking processes of a group of people who were brilliant military strategists. Since we cannot know what they were thinking, we can only try to duplicate their thinking. While I am not Sherlock Holmes, I do have a lot more thinking time than Sherlock's almost instantaneous decisions. And, my thoughts over 30 years clearly involved a lot more time than the Aztecs had to think about it. Except I am doing a sort of reverse engineering. Trying to figure out what they must have done based on the culture at the time and the way they did things.

My latest thoughts were, how was the treasure, which Bernal Dias said included lots of jewels in addition to the gold, packaged for storage? If we did dig down there, not likely to happen in my lifetime, what would we find? Not plastic nor tar paper packaging, of course. And, if it were wood, it will be long gone. There are wood eating bugs here, and they are not termites.

So, what would it be? I am convinced they knew what they were doing, and the loot was going to be well protected in some unknown manner.

I added an unexplained issue involving the finding of the skeleton and gold around 1910, in the room where I think it is buried.

I don't even know if I remembered to include it. But, my wife's grandfather told her that when they dug out the skeleton there were steps leading down into the ground.

That made no sense at the time, which is why I didn't think much about it at the time. Why would there be steps going into the ground? Makes no sense at first.

Today, while thinking about these issues, it became apparent what might have happened.

In the house in Tenochtitlan that they were put in by Moctezuma II, there was the sealed room with the 700,000 pesos of gold and jewelry. That means stone. And, by poor memory, I think most of the houses in Tenochtitlan were made of stone, including the roofs. If that is not true, my theories would change rapidly. Feel free to let me know on this if you have data to the contrary. I need to go back and read the books again.

In any case, the sealed jewel room had a top on it, or they would have simply climbed in to it. Instead they chopped their way in, somehow. Then fixed it up later. Per Bernal Dias.

I don't know exactly how the Aztecs bonded stones to make a house and roofs. I know they did have a mortar based on quicklime, rather than cement. Cement takes a very hot fire to bake. Quicklime is much lower temperature like 500 degrees vs. 1500. (I looked it up before but forget now and it is late tonight.) There is an old oven for quicklime in a field a few miles from my house, and it uses natural ventilation with openings at the bottom. This is sufficient for quick lime. In fact, you can make small quantities by tossing a travertine marble rock in a regular fire.

I don't think they would make steps down for a pile of loot laid at the bottom and covered with dirt. They would just hand it down.

No, it would be consistent that they built a small sealed room down there, like in the house Cortes and crew stayed in. This was consistent with their current technology and building practices, and desire to protect what they viewed as a priceless treasure. And, the stairs were how to get down there to that sealed room.

Then, the sealed room would be covered with dirt.

This makes more sense than taking a week to bury 15 tons of loot in the ground. Strong workers would not need that much time just to dig a hole. 15 tons of gold simply is not that big. I think I figured out earlier that 15 tons would fit in a pickup bed, though it would destroy the pickup bed.

However, some have even suggested that the gold may not have been in bars, but in decorative form, like mythological creatures or jewelry. That would be an additional reason to spend some time protecting it.

But, to gather suitable stones in a quarry town, and dig out the space, then build up a sealed room that would take a week, even for a large crew of experienced masons.

Of course, that week data is by oral tradition, and might have taken longer. However, the local conquered Indian tribe may well have had plenty of quicklime, because they used it in their own fort. I have seen it.

In any case, my latest theory is such a valuable treasure would have been protected by a full fledged sealed room down there.

Voila! A GPR (Ground Penetrating Radar) would show that sucker like a K-mart flashing blue light! (Unless that concrete floor blocks GPR.

I told my wife the latest theory and why I think so. She is really laughing at it. How things have changed in the last 30 years! At that time, I didn't believe her when she said Moctezuma came here at times. Now, I am convinced the treasure is here, and she thinks I have lost it. :D

Remember, all this theory is based on some written information, plus the fact that local tradition says it is here. Everything else was based on following the predictable thought processes of military geniuses.
 

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My wife said it was her grandfather, witness to the skeleton and gold neck piece, who had the thick concrete floor put in that room, thus precluding anyone digging in there.

Remember, please keep thinking this is insane and the gold was taken for two months to the north. Thus leaving us in peace. :D
 

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piegrande

Remember , where insane ends , starts the logic .
 

Hee, hee. Good one.

I went up the hill and talked to a cousin who has also contemplated this issue. He is one of the two who got drunk and dug a nice garbage hole in my back yard, thinking that is where the treasure is.

He said the old grandfather, the man who helped dig the skeleton in 1910 and saw the big piece of gold they donated for the new church bell, told him that the skeleton was in a wooden 'vault' of ahuehuete, or Mexican cypress. A wood which allegedly has high resistance to rot and insects.

And, when they took out the vault, there was a stone "floor" under it. They did not dig through that stone floor. This is new information.

So, he said when he was told the story of the skeleton he also guessed there was a 'house' down there, not just a floor. He liked my theory and said he thought it was right. Please understand this is a local man who heard the traditions of the treasure being buried locally, since he was born.

He said the old tales state when someone or something important was buried, they allegedly put 'someone' down there to keep an eye on things. I joked that they may have asked for volunteers. He said that was not a joke; they did ask for volunteers. Sometimes ignorant people believed it was a good idea. So, the skeleton may not have been Moctezuma.

He mentioned using a metal detector. I explained a GPR which can see down quite a ways. He liked that. I think a GPR can see though a stone floor, but am not sure.

Note that once again there is completely consistent information in this perhaps wild theory.
 

But, even if a GPR can't see through the stone floor, it should be able to see beside it. That would perhaps require taking up the existing floor in that room. I thought it was concrete, but he says it is flagstone, locally produced not concrete.
 

I told my son the latest theory, of the houses or boxes under ground. He said both the ancient Chinese and Egyptians did just that.

He also said he thinks GPR can see through granite so concrete or flagstone should be no problem.
 

>>Bailey claims Montezuma ordered that half the Aztec treasure be removed even before the Spaniards arrived in Tenochtitlan.

I just re-read the whole thread, and had missed that comment.

That brings up many more possibilities. For example, is my treasure here the first removal pre-Cortes, or the Noche Triste treasure?

And, is it possible the first removal was sent to the US area? When the Aztecs were not under dire threat as they were after Noche Triste, they would have more capacity to go a thousand miles.

That then brings up the possibility that instead of having two separate theories, of which only one can be correct, we have two theories which are both true?

But, to me it is unthinkable they sent a large amount of bearers and soldiers a great distance while the tribe was suffering from attacks and illnesses.That would not have been a good military strategy at all.

I am one who believes that before gold was viewed as valuable, there may have been very large quantities of it. Once people valued it highly and started hoarding it, the amount available rapidly decreased dramatically so today there is little of it found.
 

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I just realized that I don't know where gold comes from. Is it dispersed throughout the surface of the earth? Does it come up from magna in volcanoes from the core of the earth? So, I don't know if all the gold near the surface has been found or not. Not that this is relevant to the location of the Aztec gold, except to show where the Aztecs got their gold.

Tales sure make it sound as if there was a large amount of gold in Mexico at one time. Not so much now. A common mistake is to assume the current reality reflects the way things were historically.
 

>>Bailey claims Montezuma ordered that half the Aztec treasure be removed even before the Spaniards arrived in Tenochtitlan.

I just re-read the whole thread, and had missed that comment.

That brings up many more possibilities. For example, is my treasure here the first removal pre-Cortes, or the Noche Triste treasure?

And, is it possible the first removal was sent to the US area? When the Aztecs were not under dire threat as they were after Noche Triste, they would have more capacity to go a thousand miles.

That then brings up the possibility that instead of having two separate theories, of which only one can be correct, we have two theories which are both true?

But, to me it is unthinkable they sent a large amount of bearers and soldiers a great distance while the tribe was suffering from attacks and illnesses.That would not have been a good military strategy at all.

I am one who believes that before gold was viewed as valuable, there may have been very large quantities of it. Once people valued it highly and started hoarding it, the amount available rapidly decreased dramatically so today there is little of it found.

Without having the Bailey citation handy (what book are we talking about here anyway?), I just wanted to share few thoughts:

1.) The idea that Montezuma had half the treasure moved out before the arrival of the Spaniards seems unlikely. For one, Montezuma was giving Cortes and company gold in large quantities already, so it would make no sense to give so much on the front end and then hide more on the back.

2.) Also, keep in mind when the Spaniards captured Montezuma, they were housed per Montezuma's instruction in a building that contained Montezuma's father's royal treasury. If the goal was to hide treasure from the Spaniards, why put them on top of it when they were trying to hide it.

3.) The Aztec did not value gold the way the Spaniards did, so it's uncertain they would have felt the need to remove it in the first place. Montezuma had guides lead the Spaniards to the three sources (read: MINES) of the gold. Not the act of someone that is trying to prevent the gold from being found.

The idea that there may be more than one moving of the treasure isn't all that different from the belief man hold that the treasure was hidden in more than one location. Many assume the spiritual fulfillment of a return to Aztlan suggests the treasure was buried in 7 caves. It also stands to reason that if the treasure was that large, natural attrition would mean more than one burial site as members of the transport party perished and their treasure had to be dispersed among the survivors or buried. For my part, I'd look for the treasure in places where you might expect a calamity or large numbers of deaths via nature. The edge of the Sonoran Dessert might be a good start for one of the unintentional cache sites I think.

The Aztecs were under no direct threat after Noche Triste. It is likely they believed the Spaniards defeated and set about restoring their home. Montezuma, killed as the Spaniards fled from Tenochtitlan, was quickly replaced by a new leader who himself perished in short order from disease only to be replaced himself by the individual most believe made the decision to move the treasure out of the city in the absence of the Spaniards. This seems to be more precautionary than anything but as the Spanish themselves say, "Quien Sabe?"

You mentioned the large party that took the treasure away and the feasibility of such a thing. Keep in mind, the truly horrific outbreak of Smallpox to rock the capital didn't happen until the Spaniards returned the second time, 13 months later. Also keep in mind, Tenochtitlan alone had an estimated population of between 200,000 and 300,000 people. The Aztec empire was vast and to spare a few hundred or even a few thousand people for such a task would not have impacted their population much really. Even more important is that it would have been easy to use few Aztecs as guards and guides while the heavy lifting (pun intended) would have been carried out by slaves.

Just a few things that occurred to meas I read your reply piegrande, as always, thanks for your insights...they never fail to get my mind thinking and pondering.
 

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You make some good points, there, Randy. Thanks also. I did not understand the smallpox only hit the Aztecs during the second invasion.

If it weren't for local tradition here, I would not for a minute consider the treasure was moved here. That is crucial.

Also, it is strange that Moctezuma II put them where he had the treasure hidden. I decided he was just a mess-up.

Also, as has been pointed out, this is one of the few places where gold has been found where a legend or tradition says there is gold.

I very definitely cannot rule out the treasure being split for different locations. 100 million; 750 million. What difference does it make? :D

We definitely need to keep all ideas on the table!
 

I did have a thought. Suppose someone in the Mexican government reads my postings. They can use lawyers to find my IP and location, and could come knocking on my door with GPR in hand. Wouldn't that be interesting?

Well, though the uncles would throw rocks at me, at least we'd know.
 

I recently had some "what if" thoughts.

What if the treasure isn't here as I think. So, what is? They didn't put all that stuff in there, a dead body with a large piece of gold, and a wooden vault, and a stone "floor" for nothing. At least I don't think so.

So, what if they buried Moctezuma II there, and the skeleton was his protector person? What if the vault below is just for Moctezuma II and no gold?

Those are the options as I see it.

1. Nothing there but the skeleton and the gold piece. No reason for burying him there. Sorry, no dice. Doesn't make sense.
1b. Just the skeleton of Moctezuma II with the gold piece and no other gold? Possible, but not likely, because they wouldn't have put a stone floor under him, and they'd still have to hide the treasure elsewhere.

2. Suppose the skeleton was Moctezuma II and his treasure was buried with him, rather than a volunteer buried with the gold? Makes sense. Possible.

3. Suppose the skeleton is a volunteer, and Moctezuma II is buried in the vault with the treasure? Makes sense. Possible.

4. Suppose the volunteer is there and the treasure, but not Moctezuma II? Makes sense, possible.

Am I missing a possiblity?
 

My wife came back by bus from Reynosa. She brought my used copy of Broken Spears. I read it all the first time tonight. Not too much important in it in my opinion.

They did describe the interview with Cortes and the Nahuas about the missing gold. They definitely beat around the bush when he asked where the rest of the gold was. "We gave it to joe."

Joe: I gave it to Bill. I am exaggerating of course.

I found it interesting that some of the Aztec Princes were as white as the Spaniards. There are white Mexicans in Leon, Guanajuato and I had assumed they had European ancestry. Maybe not. My best friend is from Leon, and she is far whiter than I am. She insists she is Mexican ancestry, not European.

Also the omens sounded like some major sky light works. In come cases they went on for hours, and day after day. Wonder if there were major sun explosions at that time, producing auroras that far south.

The Aztecs reported they felt around in the water with their feet, sometimes hands, to retrieve the gold that fell won during the Noche Triste.

Moctezuma was portrayed as petrified with fear of the Gods he thought were visiting him. Maybe he wasn't stupid after all?

And, many of the houses had flat roofs, which would indicate an effective mortar to bind the stone used in the roofs, I think.
 

My wife came back by bus from Reynosa. She brought my used copy of Broken Spears. I read it all the first time tonight. Not too much important in it in my opinion.

They did describe the interview with Cortes and the Nahuas about the missing gold. They definitely beat around the bush when he asked where the rest of the gold was. "We gave it to joe."

Joe: I gave it to Bill. I am exaggerating of course.

I found it interesting that some of the Aztec Princes were as white as the Spaniards. There are white Mexicans in Leon, Guanajuato and I had assumed they had European ancestry. Maybe not. My best friend is from Leon, and she is far whiter than I am. She insists she is Mexican ancestry, not European.

Also the omens sounded like some major sky light works. In come cases they went on for hours, and day after day. Wonder if there were major sun explosions at that time, producing auroras that far south.

The Aztecs reported they felt around in the water with their feet, sometimes hands, to retrieve the gold that fell won during the Noche Triste.

Moctezuma was portrayed as petrified with fear of the Gods he thought were visiting him. Maybe he wasn't stupid after all?

And, many of the houses had flat roofs, which would indicate an effective mortar to bind the stone used in the roofs, I think.

The idea that Montezuma was fearful of the coming of "gods" is one tht continues to surface though the historical record and common sense do not always support it. It makes a great story, but much of the details about Cortes being mistaken for deity seem to be introduced and promoted as little more than Spanish propoganda. Conquering the Americas was very much a religiously motivated endeavor for the Spaniards so much of the justificaiton for not only their actions, but the OUTCOMES, is steeped in religiosity. The SPaniards were sellign the idea tht they were favored of God as evidenced by their successful endeavors. The ida that Montezuma would try to drive away religious figures rather than embrace them has always struck me as problematic. One of the things i read not long ago was that in one of the offerings to the Spanish, Montezuma included religious items beleived to have once belonged to Quetzalcoatl himself, the idea being that Montezuma hoped he would recognize his own belongings...Cortes of course sent them back to Spain and quickly asked, "can I have more?" This more than anything would have led Montezuma to doubt the spiritual foundation of Cortes and illuminated him as hust another man. Read "Seven Myths of the Spanish Conquest" for more information. It's a bit dense but an intersting historical read for gaining a better udnerstanding of the motivations of the Spaniardsand how those motivations translated into behaviors and practice.
 

That is an interesting thing. Give him what would be his own stuff if he were the returned God, and he doesn't recognize the stuff. That would certainly be a major clue, wouldn't it?
 

To all-

Any good suggestions on reading material pertaining to Aztec (Monteczuma's) gold? Of course I'm interested in a book that has as much factual information as possible (or at least information that is assumed to be factual). I know there are MANY different writers who've tackled this topic so I figured I'd ask all of you what your personal favorites are. I also know that there are several posts here on TNet where people have discussed this very topic, though I figured this would be faster than going back and searching for titles (sorry if that seems lazy).

A large, delicious cup of freshly roasted goodness to those who respond!

Thank you in advance-

J.A.
 

Curious to know what you mean by the Jerusalem reference, Real. Will you elaborate?

Evening: We have tentatively established the migration of the Aztecs from Jerusalem to the coast of France / Spain - Aztlan - to North America, then gradually working their way down to Mexico city.

Azatlan was the remains of Atlantis, the shallows off of the coasts of Spain and France, the place of the cranes etc.

Question, are they the lost tribe ?

Don Jose de La Mancha el *Tropical Trampo*

Curious to know what you mean by the Jerusalem reference, Real. Will you elaborate?
 

Most of these unsubstantiated treasure tales we're familiar with first appeared in western newspapers in the late 1800's as curiosities and adventure vignettes. The Montezuma's Treasure yarn appeared in a New Zealand newspaper as early as ca 1895 as near as I can tell, but the first USA account seems to be the alleged Freddy Crystal/Kanab, UT affair ca WWI. I'm not certain this event actually occurred, but many Aztec Treasure stories subsequently popped up in the books and magazines that became popular in the 1930's and later and have since morphed into the internet treasure forum phenomena, where anything goes, it seems. I do hold out the possibility that the Aztecs were familiar with rich mines in today's SW USA, but I haven't seen even a shred of evidence that they trekked a large treasure that far north following the Conquest.

The Freddy Crystal affair absolutely did occur. No treasure was found but Freddy was able to convince most the men in town to help him dig. My ancestors lived in and around Kanab at the time and everyone older than 40 from that area knows the story. You can still visit Johnson Canyon and see the sandstone tunnels where large numbers of townsfolk dug until they got tired of it. That is unless they've filled them in as they were talking of doing.
 

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