Lima 2 escudo and 1 escudo authentic or reproduction

[TheDuderino]

I found these for sale in a jewelry store. They are mislabeled as being Atocha coins, they are not because the dates on them are 1705 and 1712 and the Atocha wreck was in 1622. One of them is a lima 1 escudo, but features the castle and lion front with the pillar and wave style back instead of the usual style for a lima 1.
The other coin is a lima 2 escudo. Both look to have exceptional striking, not quite perfect , but very close to center.

I have not seen any other authentic or reproduction that look exactly like these, so i need some other hopefully educated opinions on these. I would like to have them but i am not sure about them.

Unfortunately I do not have proper size and wight measurements, as they are set in a pennant. I also cannot see the edge to tell if there is any kind of seam.

Any help appreciated.

 

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[Mackaydon]

I'll add to BCH's definition of 'pig in a poke'. Don't buy anything based on the stated value unless the item is authenticated and worthy of the asking price.
Don........

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Welp... I think I am correct in my opinion... just found one of your coins.

The Lima 2 1705... IS listed as a known fake... and your other is exact to it... so IMO they are definitely fakes.

https://www.sedwickcoins.com/fake_cobs.htm

 

[ARC]

BCH... yep.

 

[TheDuderino]

Don't buy a 'pig in a poke'.
Don......

I examined them both under a loupe extensively. They are not marked as being a copy, or reproduction, and nothing really stood out to me that screams “its a fake” except the odd style for the 1 escudo, and some very small pits on one that could be from casting or corrosion in the sea.

 

[TheDuderino]

It came from an estate. The seller has no information on it, and don’t really know what they have.
I am thinking of making an offer of $50 each, and just moving on.

What do you guys think?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It came from an estate. The seller has no information on it, and don’t really know what they have.
I am thinking of making an offer of $50 each, and just moving on.

What do you guys think?

i asked a couple of questions earlier that were not answered. Did the jeweler test for gold and if it was gold, what karat was the testing? Is the bezel silver or pot metal? The word copy only appears on honest replicas that arent meant to fool anybody. That doesnt apply to criminal fakes. If they are fake, i dont think they are worth $50 dollars each as you could buy gold plated replica copies for $10. If they are gold then they are at least worth the weight in gold but if they are not close to 24k, they are fake. Its obvious the jeweler has no idea what he has and you are hoping to find a bargain that slipped through the cracks but I would have a very hard time believing a jeweler cannot test for gold. It would seem that he already tested it and if its a solid gold fake he will not sell for $50. If they are gold plated junk, he might. I would at least try to determine if they are 24k carat before they could have any chance of being an unkown authentic.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Ask him if you could put a drop of Nitric on one of the pits. Nitric Acid will not harm it if its solid gold.

 

[TheDuderino]

i asked a couple of questions earlier that were not answered. Did the jeweler test for gold and if it was gold, what karat was the testing? Is the bezel silver or pot metal? The word copy only appears on honest replicas that arent meant to fool anybody. That doesnt apply to criminal fakes. If they are fake, i dont think they are worth $50 dollars each as you could buy gold plated replica copies for $10. If they are gold then they are at least worth the weight in gold but if they are not close to 24k, they are fake. Its obvious the jeweler has no idea what he has and you are hoping to find a bargain that slipped through the cracks but I would have a very hard time believing a jeweler cannot test for gold. It would seem that he already tested it and if its a solid gold fake he will not sell for $50. If they are gold plated junk, he might. I would at least try to determine if they are 24k carat before they could have any chance of being an unkown authentic.

Coin is 24k and bezel is silver.

 

[TheDuderino]

i asked a couple of questions earlier that were not answered. Did the jeweler test for gold and if it was gold, what karat was the testing? Is the bezel silver or pot metal? The word copy only appears on honest replicas that arent meant to fool anybody. That doesnt apply to criminal fakes. If they are fake, i dont think they are worth $50 dollars each as you could buy gold plated replica copies for $10. If they are gold then they are at least worth the weight in gold but if they are not close to 24k, they are fake. Its obvious the jeweler has no idea what he has and you are hoping to find a bargain that slipped through the cracks but I would have a very hard time believing a jeweler cannot test for gold. It would seem that he already tested it and if its a solid gold fake he will not sell for $50. If they are gold plated junk, he might. I would at least try to determine if they are 24k carat before they could have any chance of being an unkown authentic.

Coin is 24k and bezel is silver.

 

[TheDuderino]

The real question is the 1 escudo coin.
Lot of people telling me those lions and castles have poor detail compared to rest of coin, but everyone is ignoring the fact that they should not be there at all.

I have never seen this before on any real or fake 1 escudo coin. It should only be the cross on front and a larger single castle on back with mint, assayer, and date.

Question is, has anyone on here ever seen this in a 1 escudo?
Is it a very rare mint? Or just bull?

I am puzzled by this.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The real question is the 1 escudo coin.
Lot of people telling me those lions and castles have poor detail compared to rest of coin, but everyone is ignoring the fact that they should not be there at all.

I have never seen this before on any real or fake 1 escudo coin. It should only be the cross on front and a larger single castle on back with mint, assayer, and date.

Question is, has anyone on here ever seen this in a 1 escudo?
Is it a very rare mint? Or just bull?

I am puzzled by this.

First of all I guess I missed it because this is the first I heard of it being 24karat gold. If we had known that up front we wouldnt have to be talking about gold plated copies. I wasnt ignoring the fact that the lions and castles should not be there at all on the 1 escudo. I even stated that you appear to be hoping for something very rare. Its just the lions and castles look so bad it jumped out at me. But yes they should not be there at all in the 1 escudo according to what i posted from Sedwick . Did you try the Spanish Cob forum? Those guys would know. Well now that we know its 24k, if you can get it at melt down price, you cant lose. It still brings up the question as to why someone would use a silver bezel on a 24k coin? My suggestion would be to study the known fakes on Sedwicks very close to see if any match because i didnt look that closely. Remember no 2 are exactly alike so if you look real close at the 2 escudo and find an exact match, it has to be fake. As far as the 1 escudo, nobody has yet to find a match i realize that. You need the Spanish Cob forum on that one. And nobody is going to make a 24k copy. Its either genuine, fake or a complete fantasy jewelry piece. A fantasy piece probably does not need to use the word copy. But if the 2 escudo is fake, it would make the other look suspect. Good luck and Im looking forward to what the Cob forum has to say. In the old days I would post it there myself just to try and help but im on a celphon.
Dont reveal the location to anybody just in case its authenti. Ha ha. Good luck.

 

[TheDuderino]

I posted on there, but no replies. I have seen a 2 escudos on Sedwicks that is similar but the strike location is different so looks close but not the same.

 

[ARC]

If its in fact 24k..

This would again be a red flag / "off".

Should be 22.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I posted on there, but no replies. I have seen a 2 escudos on Sedwicks that is similar but the strike location is different so looks close but not the same.

I wouldnt be looking only at the strike location for a cast duplicate. Look at the fine details in the lettering, in the castles the lions etc.

Here is a guy that actually makes dies for replicas. You might have to join to view it. It seems to me it would be almost impossible to tell if his are fake because he strikes them.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/410837442379925/permalink/1486979128099079/

He says he does a few things to insure his will not be mistaken for the real thing, like make the shield backwards. So in your case by placing shields and lions where it should not be may have been purposely done by the manufacturer.

Sorry if I confused anybody about the purity. I should have said close to 24k. I was assuming that your test solution cannot determine between 22 and 24.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

If its in fact 24k..

This would again be a red flag / "off".

Should be 22.

Good catch. I was guessing all along that they were gold plated. I just meant for him to test with nitric for solid gold. If he is using a test solution or other method that can determine between 22k and 24k than yes this sounds as if it could be a determing factor. I guess weight is another method of determining authenticity?
https://coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinIntros/Sp-Gold.intro.html

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Posting in a celphon is a pain. He may have used a solution similar to this that would only test to 22k.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Duderino, you say you searched for the word copy.
I wouldnt put much on that to determine authenticity. Although the National Coin Hobby Act states that imitation coins must contain the word “copy”, coins are being produced in China without concern for the regulations.

I asked the man in Facebook that makes dies.

 

[CRUSADER]

Repro's as others have stated.

 

[ARC]

Good catch. I was guessing all along that they were gold plated. I just meant for him to test with nitric for solid gold. If he is using a test solution or other method that can determine between 22k and 24k than yes this sounds as if it could be a determing factor. I guess weight is another method of determining authenticity?
https://coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinIntros/Sp-Gold.intro.html

Correct.