Legend of the Stone Maps

[Backwoodsbob]

Well Mr. gullum. I could use some of research materials you have provided. I thank you for it. What can you tell me. About the southeast of the country. I can not find anything about my site. Or i don't know how. I have sent Pm to you. You haven't responded yet. I don't read or speak Spanish. I can see their magic. Someone mentioned the witches earlier.I have only seem it used here once.The piece itself is a little scary. I know that most are not use to the materials they have here. I try to get the best picture of the stones. That way others can see their work The hidden messages. I'm all by myself on this. I learn what I can from you guys. And I want to say Thanks to all of you out there. I have a total disability. So i have a lot of time to study the stones ,trees etc.. I study the symbolism of a site and the animals that are use. I'm learning the symbols and codes. I see the animal symbols the no one is talking about. The rat tells me that a stash is close by. The face of a man. Is he watching you or over something. Just like the symbol you pointed out in Bolton or kino's writing. They where others not mentioned. Are they not important? In this stuff you may be right until proven wrong. It is a form of science so it can be proven. Im rambling so enough said. Thanks again, Bob

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[gollum]

Mike,

OK. Then I am back to my earlier question......Did you find any mistakes in your translation of what Bolton or Polzer had translated from whatever their sources were?

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

Like I stated previously, I don't a problem with any of their translations. Bolton, Polzer SJ, Burrus SJ, Treutline, and a few others I forget right now. Each person uses a different slant to their writings. A Conservative Republican and a Liberal Democrat writing about the same event will probably write stories that sound like two separate events. Straight translations are not prone to that, but other types of books are.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,

Like I stated previously, I don't a problem with any of their translations. Bolton, Polzer SJ, Burrus SJ, Treutline, and a few others I forget right now. Each person uses a different slant to their writings. A Conservative Republican and a Liberal Democrat writing about the same event will probably write stories that sound like two separate events. Straight translations are not prone to that, but other types of books are.

Mike

Mike,

I was under the impression that their translations were, pretty much, word for word. I have some original documents in Spanish with the next page showing the word for word translation......I think.

Thanks,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Mike,

I was under the impression that their translations were, pretty much, word for word. I have some original documents in Spanish with the next page showing the word for word translation......I think.

Thanks,

Joe

Simple mistake. Unless you are translating a dictionary, there is no such thing as an accurate word for word translation. Just as with Spanish Monuments, document translation is all about CONTEXT and PHRASING. Here is a perfect "for instance":

Let's say a phrase in a Spanish Document is "gente de razon". A "WORD-FOR-WORD" translation would be "people of reason". Correct translations would be either a Spaniard of Castillian descent or an upper class Mexican living The Spanish Lifestyle (Spanish Acculturated). I don't think you will ever see "gente de razon" written to describe any Indian, Creole, or Mullatto. Gente de razon is also a legal distinction.

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Mike I am in agreement with you on translations, It must be done with the context, not the literal one in mind. often they can have a distinct difference.

Generally the "Gente de Razon" diferenates between the Indian population and the Spanish. A derogative remark as 'inferior beings'.

Side remark, you stated -----------which gives me access to the Archives in Mexico DF.

What can you find out sbout Tayopa , or the clandestine route via El Rio Del Norte (Rio Grande ) ?

I have had limited success, I haven't used my Expolrers Club I.D. yet.

 

[Old]

Returning back to John Jackson Tumlinson "Peg Leg" and his Confederate record....

Gentlemen; may I ask where you are getting your information that Peg Leg ever saw duty in Arizona as a Confederate cavalryman?

 

[azdave35]

Returning back to John Jackson Tumlinson "Peg Leg" and his Confederate record....

Gentlemen; may I ask where you are getting your information that Peg Leg ever saw duty in Arizona as a Confederate cavalryman?

maybe they are just making it up...lol

 

[cactusjumper]

Returning back to John Jackson Tumlinson "Peg Leg" and his Confederate record....

Gentlemen; may I ask where you are getting your information that Peg Leg ever saw duty in Arizona as a Confederate cavalryman?

Lynda,

This is the best bet from ancestry.com:

[TABLE="class: table tableHorizontal tableHorizontalRuled"]
[TR]
[TH]Name:[/TH]
[TD]John Tumlinson[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Side:[/TH]
[TD]Confederate[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Regiment State/Origin:[/TH]
[TD]Texas[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Regiment Name:[/TH]
[TD]Madison's Reg't Texas Cavalry[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Regiment Name Expanded:[/TH]
[TD]Madison's Regiment, Texas Cavalry (Phillips') (3rd Regiment, Arizona Brigade)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Company:[/TH]
[TD]A[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Rank In:[/TH]
[TD]Private[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Rank In Expanded:[/TH]
[TD]Private[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Rank Out:[/TH]
[TD]Private[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Rank Out Expanded:[/TH]
[TD]Private[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Film Number:[/TH]
[TD]M227 roll 37[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Other Records:[/TH]
[TD] Learn More about this Regiment[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Cancel

I did not go farther into this, as I am not sold on the story. Thing is, the regiment never set foot in Arizona.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[sdcfia]

Lynda,

This is the best bet from ancestry.com:

[TABLE="class: table tableHorizontal tableHorizontalRuled"]
[TR]
[TH]Name:[/TH]
[TD]John Tumlinson[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Side:[/TH]
[TD]Confederate[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Regiment State/Origin:[/TH]
[TD]Texas[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Regiment Name:[/TH]
[TD]Madison's Reg't Texas Cavalry[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Regiment Name Expanded:[/TH]
[TD]Madison's Regiment, Texas Cavalry (Phillips') (3rd Regiment, Arizona Brigade)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Company:[/TH]
[TD]A[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Rank In:[/TH]
[TD]Private[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Rank In Expanded:[/TH]
[TD]Private[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Rank Out:[/TH]
[TD]Private[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Rank Out Expanded:[/TH]
[TD]Private[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Film Number:[/TH]
[TD]M227 roll 37[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Other Records:[/TH]
[TD] Learn More about this Regiment[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Cancel

I did not go farther into this, as I am not sold on the story. Thing is, the regiment never set foot in Arizona.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

I don't believe this is Pegleg Tumlinson (1848-1920). Even if he'd enlisted as late as 1864, he'd have only been 16 years old at that time. Possible, I guess. However, all the CSA Arizona brigades were moved out of AZ by Carlton in 1862, which would have made him 14 then. It's a safe bet to say Pegleg was not a uniformed Reb active in AZ during the Civil War.

The Arizona brigades saw war action in TX and LA. For you KGC conspiracists, this region was one of their major hotbeds, with a lot of influence originating in New Orleans. I would think it very likely that if Pegleg could be linked to the KGC, it would have been after the Civil War, even up to as late as his death. This is a prime period for "Mexican maps and treasure legends".


Photo courtesy Ancestry.com

 

[Old]

Exactly Cactus, Scd and Dave,

This is Peg Leg's record and regiment and they never set foot or hoof in Arizona during the war. Perhaps (I even believe, likely) he ventured there later in life but not as a CSA cavalryman.

 

[Old]

Actions of the Arizona Brigade. Peg Leg's unit was Company A, Phillip's. The closest the Brigade ever got to New Orleans was Donaldsonville, some 60 miles distant. Just my opinion, but seems to me quite unlikely a young lad of 14 to 15, as a Private, would be engaged in such high level antics as has been attributed to him in this thread. That's quite a stretch.

Did his service harden him and shape his later life? Indeed, I believe it did. As it did to the majority of those that served and lived to tell about it.

THIRD TEXAS CAVALRY, ARIZONA BRIGADE. On May 29, 1862, Lt. Col. John Robert Baylor received authorization from the Confederate War Department to raise "five battalions of Partisan Rangers of six companies each" for what would become known as the Arizona Brigade. The government would pay volunteers a bounty, but expected them to furnish their own arms, equipment, and horses. The purpose of the brigade would be to retake the southwestern territories for the Confederacy, and its ranks would be made up of Texans recently returned from fighting in Arizona and territorial volunteers who had joined the Confederate command at Mesilla. George Madison, former deputy sheriff of Tucson, organized one of the battalions with companies from Burnet, San Saba, and Bell counties. Company B, organized in the San Antonio area, reenlisted many Arizona veterans as well as members of the local Tejano community. When Colonel Baylor lost command of the brigade because his controversial policies toward the Apaches in Arizona became public, Maj. Gen. John Magruder reorganized the small incomplete battalions into three regiments. Madison's Battalion became part of the Third Texas Cavalry, Arizona Brigade. Three additional companies known as Coast Guards because they had served in defense of the Galveston area for over a year also joined the Third. Hendricks's company from Denton, Woods's company from Robertson and Milam counties, and the Arizona Scouts completed the regiment. For promotion to colonel of the Third Texas Cavalry, Arizona Brigade, General Magruder chose a member of his own staff, a thirty-year-old Virginian, Capt. Joseph Phillips.
Phillips's regiment left for Louisiana on April 24, 1863, and was accompanied by Col. Barton W. Stone's Second Texas Partisan Rangers. They were assigned to Col. James Major's Second Texas Cavalry Brigade. In their first action, the Third Cavalry raided the town of Plaquemine and seized three steamers, two steam flats, approximately 100 bales of cotton, and a quantity of commissary stores. In June they took part in the assault on Fort Butler, a Union earthwork at Donaldsonville. Colonel Phillips fell dead in an unsuccessful attempt to breach the walls of the fort. George Madison, wounded in the assault, took command of the regiment. Through the rest of 1863 they continued to operate in the bayou country and took part in battles at Stirling's Plantation and Bayou Bourbeau.
In December1863 the regiment returned to Texas and made camp at Galveston to assist in the defense against a Union expedition advancing up the coast from Brownsville. They remained in Galveston until March 1864, when the Second Texas Cavalry Brigade again marched into Louisiana to take part in the Red River campaign. During the campaign, they fought in battles at Mansfield, Pleasant Hill, Monett's Ferry, and Yellow Bayou. When Gen. Nathaniel Banks's Union forces began its retreat across the Atchafalaya River, Madison's regiment followed to harass the enemy and engaged the Union rear guard in several skirmishes. In September 1864 the regiment marched to Arkansas with the cavalry brigade and returned to Texas in December. They remained in the Houston area until the surrender of the Trans-Mississippi Department on May 26, 1865. The regiments that had once formed Major's brigade assembled and mustered out of service at Hempstead. Under the conditions of surrender, the men retained their side arms, personal baggage, and their horses. George Madison, so often described as a daring and courageous commander, completely disappeared following the surrender of his regiment.

 

[sdcfia]

Actions of the Arizona Brigade. Peg Leg's unit was Company A, Phillip's. The closest the Brigade ever got to New Orleans was Donaldsonville, some 60 miles distant. Just my opinion, but seems to me quite unlikely a young lad of 14 to 15, as a Private, would be engaged in such high level antics as has been attributed to him in this thread. That's quite a stretch.
<cut>

The "antics" speculated re Pegleg have to do not with the Civil War but with the events in his life as an adult, possibly a more mature adult, long after the War and extending to his demise - a period of say, 40 good years that we know little of. This is why the guy on the other forum, possibly with the help of the Tumlinson clan, have an opportunity to reveal how, when and where the so-called "ground map" came into Pegleg's possession, and later, the family's. If you knew anything about how the "KGC" (for lack of a better label) operated, vis-a-vis "treasure legends", you might suspect that Pegleg may have been targeted as a classic dupe when the ground map surfaced, and then passed on this unfortunate function to his ancestors, who apparently have also struggled unsuccessfully with the map. The Dobie connection would be interesting to know about too.

Regarding the Arizona Confederates active in AZ prior to Carlton, it might be interesting to try to figure out who of these various incarnations remained in Arizona after 1862.

 

[Old]

Snipped quote:

If you knew anything about how the "KGC" (for lack of a better label) operated, vis-a-vis "treasure legends", you might suspect that Pegleg may have been targeted as a classic dupe when the ground map surfaced, and then passed on this unfortunate function to his ancestors, who apparently have also struggled unsuccessfully with the map. .........

Is it your believe that a "dupe" would end up with the original ground map and hide map as their personal possessions? To be used exclusively for their singular treasure hunting purposes and later passed down to their descendants? And; that they lived unchallenged to do so? That's a real leap of faith to make an unlike connection work as concerns this story.

I have no doubt Peg Leg is Travis' source of both the ground map and the hide map. Where they came from is a mystery. But; to attribute them to a KGC larger plot is highly unlikely.

 

[Eldo]

So are there any records where he was traveling to after the war?

My theory is that 20 years later he was commandeered into the operation, and its proven because of the fact that somehow their decedents 'found' the stone maps.

Not knowing the history too well, the more recent Tumlinson, was involved in going to the exact location off HWY 60, and was able to locate something lost for years.

Not just one stone he stumbled upon, but a few of them. How do you just stumble on randomly placed stones.......he had to know where to look.

Now we have a relative being involved in hunting for gold stores, mines, and other fields of nuggets, and we have his current relative hunting the stones down as if he knew exactly where to go?

Not a coincidence at all.

The entire operation that occurred in AZ was around the 1880's, during the land grab, and that would have made Tumlinson 35 years old, and would have involved Peg-Leg meeting either Waltz, or Reavis somewhere along the lines. He may even have been hired to scout by another and brought into the area afterwards as being a "Ghost Figure" to the settlers there, so he could slip in to plant the stones and leave with the hide map. He would have been given a job scouting the other areas that he was known to look for gold in, and would have been involved in these scouting operations to California and other parts of the areas where there were Spanish Mining operations in the past. This is the fabled master map that the hide and other maps were taken from.

This is all a what if, but based on the speculation that there was a previous involvement with the Confederate Army, and the facts that are showing a wandering relative made it to magically find a set of 3-4 stones.

My guess is that someone made the stone maps and was told to bury them, with possibly Reavis or Waltz giving them to Tumlinson, and they must have had the hide map to locate them where they were found that was passed down through their family. The area holds some likeness to the trail marked on the stone, but doesn't lead directly to the mines if followed from there, so the reasoning for taking a leak, and then magically running into stones that originated from around the time of your relatives' gold hunting adventures seems more connected than random.

They wanted to bury the information and the location so investigators couldn't find the references to their operation and land grab. They buried the stones, and made the map, giving it to individuals they trusted to hold onto.

If this is true, then we have another person being implicated in the operations there, and someone who was meant to rediscover these stones and claim the mines for their use.

Unfortunately Tumlinson, when he found the stones was unable to interpret the stone markings to lead to the areas in question. It shows he had a passed down map and rumors to go by from his family and that he was given this information and made a part of the KGC.

The historical references can be found in AZ and New Orleans if he was involved, and if stationed in New Orleans, there were some involvement with the Castle founded by Albert Pike, as being the person that coordinated these efforts, setting them into motion.

 

[Old]

Eldo,

For this theory to work you have to accept the story that Travis "found" the maps that we are all familiar with. Many do. I'm not one of them. Way too many holes in that story. Nobody was with Travis and Aileen when he "unearthed" the stones. Its an unproven legend, just like so many others we have. Some believe wholeheartedly, some don't.

I believe he carved a set of maps that have since been duplicated and those duplicates are the set of maps we see today.

Were there stone maps that predate Travis that ended up in the family? I don't know, its possible.

Were there hide maps that per-date Travis, and maybe even Peg Leg, that include and expand on the stone map trails? We will soon find out. There certainly are hide maps (plural) in the possession of the current family that "appear" quite old. At least one of these is being date tested by the academics. The results will be interesting, to say the least.

 

[markmar]

Old

I believe TT have never carved the stone maps . Why ? simple logic . Why to carry in his research photos of the stone maps ( with black tape on some symbols for security ) , when he could carry a photo of the original paper map ?
And , to make the stone maps ,he would need three different original maps ( if include the horse and priest ) , and how he would know how they were from the same site ?

If TT have carved the maps , then i am Michelangelo ( the sculptor ) .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi MM, couldn't resist Marius.

 

[Old]

snipped quote........If TT have carved the maps , then i am Michelangelo ( the sculptor ) .

Well Hello there Michael <g> Nice job on that chapel you did.

All joking aside. Why do you think Travis carried around photos with tape marks? Mitchell had photos with tape marks but we have zero evidence that Travis did. We have Mitchell's statements, and inclusions in his books, some of which we know are embellished, but zip from Travis. Actually, embellished is a kind term. Robert may have had photos. Robert told Garman he had photos but we never saw them.

Our one photo of Travis in the mountains (actually, unknown what mountains) shows him with a hide map. Not a carved stone or photo in sight. That hide map may very well include areas with all the map areas and more. We will see it in its entirety in due time.

 

[cactusjumper]

Eldo,

For this theory to work you have to accept the story that Travis "found" the maps that we are all familiar with. Many do. I'm not one of them. Way too many holes in that story. Nobody was with Travis and Aileen when he "unearthed" the stones. Its an unproven legend, just like so many others we have. Some believe wholeheartedly, some don't.

I believe he carved a set of maps that have since been duplicated and those duplicates are the set of maps we see today.

Were there stone maps that predate Travis that ended up in the family? I don't know, its possible.

Were there hide maps that per-date Travis, and maybe even Peg Leg, that include and expand on the stone map trails? We will soon find out. There certainly are hide maps (plural) in the possession of the current family that "appear" quite old. At least one of these is being date tested by the academics. The results will be interesting, to say the least.

Lynda,

I have serious doubts that "we will soon find out" anything of importance concerning the Travis Tumlinson Manuscript. People have been working for years to track down the meanings in the Stone Maps......so far, without finding anything other than landmarks (many locations) and old mines, claims and old trails.

This looks like Ryan has been bitten by the treasure bug. When that happens, historical truth will take a back seat to $$$$

I would not hold my breath waiting to "find out".

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Thanks Joe. On the internet, you can never exactly tell intent. Anyway, you have enough enemies as it is. To go around wanting more than you already have is just plain greedy! HAHAHA

When you say:



You could not be further from the truth if you tried. I have sources Bolton could only dream about. Did Bolton correspond with people at The Jesuit Curia in Rome? I have an old family friend that retired from the University of Mexico, which gives me access to the Archives in Mexico DF. The Archivo de los Indios in Seville, Spain is mostly online now. Most universities give access to their collections of period documents and artifact collections. I can get copies of Father Och SJ's journals written in their original German with a quick email or phone call to The Bancroft Library at UC Berkeley. I can study and print copies of original period documents from Arizona State's DRSW (Documentary Relations of the South West). I have instant access to much that would have taken Bolton weeks and months to get via phone, snail mail, road trips, etc.

...and honestly, Bolton is one of the more politically correct authors of Colonial Spanish History. I prefer his mentor Frederick Jackson Turner. Read his "Frontier Thesis". Bolton vehemently disagreed with it, but I put a good bit of stock in it. If you want Jesuit History Authors? I prefer Father Ernest Burrus SJ. "Kino and Manje: Explorers of Sonora and Arizona". Father Burrus SJ did his own translations. He published papers in English, Spanish, and Both. The book I mentioned is a compendium of his translations of every one of Kino and Manje's Entradas.
Mike

Mike,

I believe you are completely wrong as to Bolton's sources. I can see you are rightfully proud of your own sources, but they have little chance of approaching those of the man who was "named head of the history department at the University of California, Berkeley, in 1919 and director of the Bancroft Library in 1920; he held both positions until 1940."

"Bolton was a pioneer in the use of Spanish and Mexican archives.....".

The above highlights are by me.

Bolton's list of "Principal Archives Cited" in "Rim of Christendom" include:

Archivo General de Indias, Sevillal, Spain, Archivo General y Publico, Mexico, Bayerische, Hauptstaatsarchiv, Munechen, Germany, Bancroft Library, Berkeley, California, Biblioteca Nacional de Espana, Madrid, Bibliioteheque Nationale de France, Paris, Biblioteca Nacional de Mexico, Biblioteca del Peru, Lima, Baylerische Staatsbibliothek, Munchen, Germany, Central Archives of the Jesuit Order, Rome, Clark Library, University of California at Los Angeles,.....There are nine (9) others cited, but I am getting tired.

To continue on, you should read the Kino Writings and Correspondence" which go on for many pages.

In the end, I believe, using your characterization, you could only dream of having the sources that Bolton had. That holds true for each and every one of us who are amateur historians, and mostly holds true for myself. Do you still believe that you can equal or surpass Bolton's qualifications as a historian?

Now you may believe I have insulted you here, but if I had made such comments, I believe you have proven that you would call me on them without a second thought.

Take care,

Joe