lead charm "money bags?"

[scaupus]

just hopin' someones seen something like this before or knows about items like this. I found this lead charm on an Everglades island used by Sam Arpeka's Seminole band. The US Marines destroyed their corn and pumpkin fields on the island one time in the 1840s, but the entire band escaped capture without casualties. Some time after 1910, the surrounding everglades were drained. I know that much of the surrounding area was developed into 10 acre farms, mostly citrus in the 1920's. This particular area was a gentleman's ranch probably by the 1960's, and a park later.

It was about 4-5" deep in the periphery of a tot lot.

It's about the size of a quarter. I was wondering who most likely would have dropped it? Recent playground child (not likely as its lead)? Ranch hand? Farmer? Seminole? Marine? There seem to be symbols on it, and gilt and silver paint. There is a crease or fold along the edge of the bag part, as you might see in a handbag that expands. I'm thinking it's some sort of token to bring prosperity...but for whom?

 

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[scaupus]

I mis-stated the size, it's only 9/16" from top to bottom, and 1/2" across.

I think its a "charm bag" charm.

I thought this was interesting:

View attachment ScreenShot004.bmpand this: https://www.google.com/search?q=rom...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a



Here's a picture from a book by "frogfoot" Weller, the Florida treasure hunter. These "money bag seals", as Weller calls them, closely resemble this charm.
I used quotes, since I'm not sure these items were properly identified by, or for, Weller. He might have just been guessing as to their use. They could have been amulets. I suppose a money bag seal might have a bail on it to store a bunch of them on a string? But it seems pretty much superfluous for a seal, you could just store them in any sort of bag or container. But an amulet/pendant absolutely requires a bail of some sort to hang it on a chain or cord. These are so highly decorated that it seems likely they were meant to be worn. The granulation along the edges is exactly typical of the ancient Roman bullae.

Interestingly, seals of all types, are called "bulla" (plural is "bullae"), which is the same word used for the Roman amulets. For instance, the seal the Pope uses on "bulls" is called a bulla. Ancient Hebrew and other seals, etc are called bullae by archeologists.


For more on the history of Bullae see Bulla (seal) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The crease on my charm appears to be solid, that is, I could not pry it open with my fingernails, it didn't budge. Yes, it looks like gilt paint on solid metal inside the crease, some sand grains inside the crease. The metal really looks and feels like lead, not pewter, but that's just mho.

I'm thinking this item is a charm bag amulet, in the tradition of the Roman bulla, probably intended for a child. It may be Roma (Gypsy), or it may be Latin/Spanish. The gilt and silver paint and decorative elements recall the gold decorated bullae of the Romans.

If it's lead, or contains much lead, and I'm sure it does, then it probably has some age to it, or was "home-made", possibly by a tinker of some sort. I believe it is cast, not carved, except for what looks like an inscription. There is at least one "letter" that looks exactly like a Greek "B". Greek was the Lingua Franca of the Roman Empire, including the Byzantine, which did not fall until 1440.

It's not impossible it was a Seminole item. They were supplied by the Spanish, traded with them, and of course, there was salvaged Spanish loot being traded and used to buy supplies. The "Spanish Indians" were encouraged by Spaniards/Cubans to attack Americans. In fact, a squaw captured by the marines who killed Chekika after the Indian Key massacre told them that 2 Spanish had informed them when the entire able-bodied military force had left Indian Key, ironically, on a search and destroy mission after these Seminoles, and that the island was undefended. The garrison had earlier captured a Spanish spy near Indian Key, who was persuaded to give up 2 Indian companions hiding on a nearby key. So we know the Spanish and the Seminoles in s. florida were closely allied.

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

i know the city of ft lauderdale does not have an ordinance addressing artifacts, historical or modern, at least not yet. if anyone knows of a broward ordinance prohibiting detectors or removal of findings i'd like to see it. Individual county park managers seem to have a lot of discretion as to what they will tolerate - just from my experience. the state has a 50 year rule for state property i think.

Fl does not permit any historical removals at all from its waters up to the high tide line on beaches.

"illegal to bring up any historical or
archaelogical artifacts (pretty much anything except obvious modern stuff
or trash) from any sovereign submerged waters in Florida.

Sovereign submerged waters are defined as:

Generally, sovereign submerged lands include tidelands and all lands beneath navigable waters, the title to which has not been validly transferred. Sovereign submerged lands encompass beaches between mean high water and mean low water lines, islands within navigable waters, lands beneath the ordinary high water marks of lakes and rivers, and lands extending three miles into the Atlantic Ocean and three marine leagues (approximately nine miles) into the Gulf of Mexico"

So, it seems that cobs found below the mean high tide line at the beach belong to the state, and must be left where you find them.

I dont know the laws, thats why I asked. I was told that you can metal detect surface finds in Broward County parks but you cannot dig any holes. Tot lots and beaches are the exception. I would like to hear more about this.

I find it hard to believe digging would be allowed at a Broward Park/Seminole War historical battle site. If this is true, Im going out tommorrow. My good friend lives a block away from the park in question

As far as the ID, Im convinced the ID by Montauk is correct. I posted a supporting link of a very similar shaped modern temple block pendant.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Hello scaupus. I read your last post. What you found is definitely not a bag seal. Bag or cloth seals have been posted here many times as they are common finds especially in Europe. The soft lead is folded over and crimped leaving impressions or lettering in the soft lead.

Here are some more pics of temple block pendants. Jujube Wood Temple Block Mobile Pendant Cell Phone Strap - DinoDirect.com I havent found an exact pot metal or lead match but then again I didnt look very hard now that it appears to me no longer a mystery. Maybe an exact match will be needed to convince you. I dont know how old it is.

 

[diggummup]

Here is the fine print on the laws in our County regarding digging in county parks.

Broward County, Florida, Code of Ordinances >> PART II - CODE OF ORDINANCES >> Chapter 25½ - PARKS AND RECREATION >> ARTICLE I >> Paragraph 3 >> Subsection B - Park property-
Trees, shrubbery, lawns, etc. Trees, shrubbery, lawns, etc., are real property assets of the park; and no person shall cut, carve, injure the bark, break off limbs, branches or mutilate in any way, or pick the flowers or seeds, of any tree or plant; nor shall any person dig in or otherwise disturb grassy areas, or in any other way injure or impair the natural beauty or usefullness of any other area; nor shall any person pile debris or material of any kind on or about any tree or plant, or attach any rope, wire or other contrivance thereto, whether temporary or permanent in character or use, except that scientists or students of botany may procure from the director or designee special permission to collect plant specimens.



I agree with the ID posted by Montauk and the example shown by BigC, it's pretty compelling.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Here is the fine print on the laws in our County regarding digging in county parks.

Broward County, Florida, Code of Ordinances >> PART II - CODE OF ORDINANCES >> Chapter 25½ - PARKS AND RECREATION >> ARTICLE I >> Paragraph 3 >> Subsection B - Park property-
Trees, shrubbery, lawns, etc. Trees, shrubbery, lawns, etc., are real property assets of the park; and no person shall cut, carve, injure the bark, break off limbs, branches or mutilate in any way, or pick the flowers or seeds, of any tree or plant; nor shall any person dig in or otherwise disturb grassy areas, or in any other way injure or impair the natural beauty or usefullness of any other area; nor shall any person pile debris or material of any kind on or about any tree or plant, or attach any rope, wire or other contrivance thereto, whether temporary or permanent in character or use, except that scientists or students of botany may procure from the director or designee special permission to collect plant specimens.



I agree with the ID posted by Montauk and the example shown by BigC, it's pretty compelling.

Thanks for posting the ordinance Digg. Would violation be a felony or misdemeanor?

 

[diggummup]

They would probably just ask you to leave the park according to the ordinance, you would be classified a nuisance and be considered a trespasser and ordered to leave. If you didn't then you would subject to a misdemeanor prosecution of trespassing, I would imagine. Here's the parks ordinance- Municode

The last statement in this paragraph-

(g) Public nuisance and disorderly conduct. Whoever commits such acts that are of a nature to corrupt the public morals, outrage the sense of public decency or affect the peace and quiet of persons who may witness same, or engages in brawling or fighting, or engages in such conduct as to constitute a hazard to the health, safety or welfare of other park visitors, or violates the rules and/or regulations of any park area, shall upon due notice of violation be classified as a trespasser, and ordered to leave the park.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Misdemeaner not so bad. Its a Felony to Metal Detect in a National Park as far as I know.

I requested permissin to MD in a State park one time. I was told that there was no law against it, but I could not keep anything. He said he didnt understand why I would want to MD if I couldnt keep anything? I couldnt get anywhere with him so I gave up and left.

 

[diggummup]

Should have told him you lost your wedding ring, that's why. Your allowed to search for personal property I believe.

 

[scaupus]

hi Diggemup...Thanks for the ordinance and application of it. That makes sense, and in fact, is exactly the way it was applied to me by the manager of a park near my home who didn't want me digging in the grass.

Bigcypress hunter...Remember...this charm came out of the tot lot...it really did. Don't blame me if you get flak detecting somewhere else in the park. Your i.d. on the item is fine; personally I don't find it compelling. This charm is solid, it is metal, it is painted gold and silver, it has very different type of decoration, it is shaped differently - the temple blocks are hollow and ball shaped, and this item is shaped more like a pill, - and it has an odd inscription, possibly in Greek.

It wasn't my intention to say this is a bag seal. What I was saying is it looks a lot like the two items that Weller called bag seals...but I don't think they are bag seals, and from your own description of bag seals found in Europe, it sounds like you might agree with me. I don't see why a bag seal would need a bail, and both of Weller's items have bails. I think they are more likely amulets, probably worn by superstitious sailors on cords around their necks to ward off evil - not that there were any superstitious sailors in that era.

Yes...I'm saying I think it's an amulet charm, for good luck, prosperity and protection against evil, and i think that it's a traditional item that traces its roots back to Roman times, and earlier.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Heres a utube video I found by accident about a guy that has been MDing a Broward park for I think he said 2 years and getting away with it. He finally got caught but was only told to quit and no arrest. I cant believe he was digging these huge holes and getting away with it although he was keeping it neat and clean. I just wouldnt have the nerve myself.. I would have tried to pop it out or use a small hand digger.

Anyway the moral of the story seems to be do it until you get caught LOL.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

hi Diggemup...Thanks for the ordinance and application of it. That makes sense, and in fact, is exactly the way it has been applied to me in a park near my home.

Bigcypress hunter...Remember...this charm came out of the tot lot...it really did. Don't blame me if you get flak detecting somewhere else in the park. Your i.d. on the item is fine; personally I don't find it compelling. This charm is solid, it is metal, it is painted gold and silver, it has very different type of decoration, it is shaped differently and it has an odd inscription, possibly in Greek.

It wasn't my intention to say this is a bag seal. What I was saying is it looks a lot like the two items that Weller called bag seals...but I don't think those are bag seals, and from your own description of bag seals found in Europe, you might agree with me. I think they are more likely to be amulets, like the one I found, perhaps worn by superstitious sailors.

Yes...I'm saying I think it's an amulet charm, for good luck, prosperity and protection against evil.

I know you said tot lot and I stated that tot lots were legal and in no way did I suggest you did something illegal

I guess I was just hoping I could go to the park and dig someday and I wish laws were different. I pretty much gave up on South Florida in the 80s. I understand and I wont blame you if I get arrested. My buddy lives a block away and I drive past it quite often. It a very interesting place the highest point in Broward County. I applaud you for getting out and trying, thanks for sharing and I wish you luck.

If its an amulet, its made to look exactly like a temple block pendant. I would suggest to get other readers opinions but I doubt it would change your mind block. I was really hoping for you in the beginning until Montauk posted.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Im not going to try and convince you of anything now that I see your mind is already made up but I just want to point out to you the same odd design between the arrows. This design and the exact shape is extremelly compelling. I can understand you dont see it this way and I am only speaking from experience here on the WII Forum. I think I can usually recognize a thread when its toast.

The only chance I see would be if an Indian or soldier designed an amulet or charm to resemble a temple block, but that seems unlikely. You may want to see how old temple blocks are and if the Indians had any reason to imitate a temple block.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Heres a better pic of a bag seal. I guess they had a string or wire that rotted away. They almost always have lettering or some kind of design. MendipMetalDetecting: Lead Bag Seal - R CANDY of STREET

 

[scaupus]

Im not going to try and convince you of anything now that I see your mind is already made up but I just want to point out to you the same odd design between the arrows. This design and the exact shape is extremelly compelling. I can understand you dont see it this way and I am only speaking from experience here on the WII Forum. I think I can usually recognize a thread when its toast.

The only chance I see would be if an Indian or soldier designed an amulet or charm to resemble a temple block, but that seems unlikely. You may want to see how old temple blocks are and if the Indians had any reason to imitate a temple block.

ok, yes, that design element and the similar overall shape could be compelling. It's a possibility that I will research. But, as you've pointed out, you've not seen an image of one of these as a metal charm. I would also think that a good luck amulet would get the nod as being a much more common sort of item to find, wooden temple block charms must be a pretty esoteric item; metal ones are yet to be confirmed (by us) as existing at all.

I think its a case like a dog (or wolf) and a Tasmanian Devil looking very similar to each other...convergent evolution, I think they call it. They look a lot alike, but their evolution and DNA are totally different. I think that's the case with the Temple Block and this charm.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

A quick search revealed a silver temple block pendant but it did not look like a match, so I didnt post it. This is starting to remind me of the old "Found in a Football Field" thread. We couldnt find a metal Gonjji stone to save our life but there was no doubt all along what it was. Finally after years of searching, a metal Gonjji stone showed up on a Korean website and it was an exact match.


You can hold out for an exact match in metal if you wish. I understand you need to be 100 percent certain but I wouldnt get my hopes up. I would say Im 99.99 percent convinced but there is always a chance and I hope we are wrong. We have some good members following this thread and hopefully they can find a match for you. .

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Another thing that looks bad Digg mentioned that it appears to have mould seams.

Can you read the lettering? It looks like PEPE or PEPIY

It has a nice antique looking scroll on the bottom so maybe its old.

 

[scaupus]

BCH...I've done some checking online. Temple blocks come in a variety of shapes, most images on google were ones that mount on a frame. There were a few hand held ones. I saw the image you copied. It seems pretty unique among all the others. I found one metal charm sold as a temple block charm, made by Swarovski, the crystal and jewelry company, but its an abstract shape, nothing at all like my item.

My find could be a temple block charm, it certainly looks like the particular one you copied. It seems unlikely just from a statistical point of view...good luck amulets are so common, while on the other hand, we haven't yet confirmed that realistic looking temple block charms cast in metal have ever been made...but its certainly possible.

If I had to cast a vote on a quiz show...I'd vote lucky amulet, just based on the possible size of the populations of the 2 postulated charm types.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Im changing my percent to 99.5. Maybe we need to take a second look.

Could you take a picture next to a quarter for size comparison?

Are you sure its lead and not pot metal? Can you weigh it? Can you scratch it with a knife?

Even though it was gold plated, Im thinking its kind of odd to have a heavy lead pendant on a celphone or even around your neck

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I concede that it could be an old temple block amulet worn by an Indian. Im sure its possible. My 99.5 just pertains to it being a temple block period. I have no idea how old or who wore it or for what reason.

I think some research may need to be done on temple blocks. And Im wondering why someone would have a temple block on their celphone? Kinda like a watch fob?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Another guess is band related. It may have been dropped by a band member that played in the park and maybe it was tied to a keychain or something..