lead charm "money bags?"

[scaupus]

just hopin' someones seen something like this before or knows about items like this. I found this lead charm on an Everglades island used by Sam Arpeka's Seminole band. The US Marines destroyed their corn and pumpkin fields on the island one time in the 1840s, but the entire band escaped capture without casualties. Some time after 1910, the surrounding everglades were drained. I know that much of the surrounding area was developed into 10 acre farms, mostly citrus in the 1920's. This particular area was a gentleman's ranch probably by the 1960's, and a park later.

It was about 4-5" deep in the periphery of a tot lot.

It's about the size of a quarter. I was wondering who most likely would have dropped it? Recent playground child (not likely as its lead)? Ranch hand? Farmer? Seminole? Marine? There seem to be symbols on it, and gilt and silver paint. There is a crease or fold along the edge of the bag part, as you might see in a handbag that expands. I'm thinking it's some sort of token to bring prosperity...but for whom?

 

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[diggummup]

I don't know but I did find this, not what you have but interesting nonetheless-

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The crease makes me think its some kind of crimp-on fishing weight. The interesting part is that it looks as if someone carved and painted it.

I dont know what it is scaupus. I work on the reservation Aug-Jan and if you havent solved it by then, I can show the picture around to the Indians if you like..

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I have a gut feeling that you may have found something important. Ive been trying to research the neck dress and beads that the women wear thinking it may be some kind of doll but I am unable to find a match. Maybe the top represents fins of a fish, turtle, manatee or scales but it still doesnt really fit.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I have seen weights carved to look like a fish. It looks like a name on the side. Can you tell the letters?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Maybe a fishing jig and the hook rusted away. The owner tried to carve a name on the side.

 

[diggummup]

The crease makes me think its some kind of crimp-on fishing weight. The interesting part is that it looks as if someone carved and painted it.

I dont know what it is scaupus. I work on the reservation Aug-Jan and if you havent solved it by then, I can show the picture around to the Indians if you like..

I agree it does have the general appearance of a split shot, but the size is way too big (size of a quarter) and the crease is just that, a carved crease that doesn't go deep enough to be crimped to a line. It doesn't look familiar to anything i've ever seen related to the Seminoles. It definitely shows traces of gold paint. Btw- I have about a dozen or so of those Palmetto Fiber dolls ranging from the 1930's - modern.

Scaupus- Are those seam lines inside the hole at the top and running along the sides? I think I know what park you found this at. It's about 7-8 miles from my house.
It's an interesting find, I hope we can figure it out.

 

[Broken knee]

Well here is my 2 cents worth, I think it's a bell that slit on the bottom seams to be chuck full of sand clean it out and you should have a cavity for A clapper pea? HH
Broken Knee

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Im curious was it hard to get permission?

During the Second Seminole War March 22, 1838, Ar-pi-uck-i (Arpeika, Sam Jones)led an unknown number of Seminoles against 223 Tennessee Volunteer Militia and 38 U.S. regular troops led by Major William Lauderdale. The Battle of Pine Island Ridge, in which the soldiers were forced to attack the Pine Island Ridge hammock through waist deep water while being fired upon from the cover of the island[SUP][21][/SUP], was a victory for the Seminoles. This battle was U.S. retaliation for the Cooley Massacre of January 6, 1836, in which approximately twenty Seminoles attacked the home of William Cooley in the trading settlement on the New River, which was eight miles distant from the Pine Island Ridge hammock[SUP][[/SUP]

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Maybe its too large for a split shot but Im still thinking its fishing related.

Could this be the remains of a hook?View attachment 640513View attachment 640519

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Is it lead or pot metal?

 

[diggummup]

Well here is my 2 cents worth, I think it's a bell that slit on the bottom seams to be chuck full of sand clean it out and you should have a cavity for A clapper pea? HH
Broken Knee

I though that too but when I supersize the image it looks like the slit on the bottom is solid and the sand, with the exception of the surface grains, is actually gold paint. I could be wrong though. Lets wait and see what scaupus has to say.

 

[ivan salis]

pewter is quite similar to lead ( being lead is a large part of pewters make up in the old days) but pewter is much harder and durible than lead ---many things used to be made from it.

might have once been a bag seal that was later "modified" to make a doll like above - the groove could be for the seal wire.

 

[Montauk]

A Temple Block charm perhaps? The distinctive shape of this item very closely resembles a percussion instrument
known as a temple block. Eastern in origin they were used in western Jazz Era drum kits for their hollow
knocking sound. I've seen a lot of these instruments lying around flea markets & yard sales. Curious subject
for a charm & I would assume then that it is pot metal.

OLD 1920's/30's LEEDY-LUDWIG 5 GRADUATED WOOD DRUM TEMPLE BLOCK WOODBLOCK SET NR | eBay

View attachment TB.bmp View attachment tba.bmp

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

A Temple Block charm perhaps? The distinctive shape of this item very closely resembles a percussion instrument
known as a temple block. Eastern in origin they were used in western Jazz Era drum kits for their hollow
knocking sound. I've seen a lot of these instruments lying around flea markets & yard sales. Curious subject
for a charm & I would assume then that it is pot metal.

OLD 1920's/30's LEEDY-LUDWIG 5 GRADUATED WOOD DRUM TEMPLE BLOCK WOODBLOCK SET NR | eBay

View attachment 640639 View attachment 640640

Wow heck of an ID Montauk. Thats what it is no doubt. Its a temple block charm or pendant like this one. OtherBrand Jujube Wood Temple Block Mobile Pendant Cell Phone Strap - Cell Phone Straps - Price Comparison - Mobile Phone Accessories - Mobile Phone Other Accessories - Accessories - 40801083 Oh well so much for the artifact theory.
View attachment 640743

 

[Montauk]

Thank You BH

 

[diggummup]

Ditto that! Looks pretty convincing Montauk. I'd of never found that. Green check time.

(said with tongue in cheek) -Scaupus- At least we know you didn't break any laws by removing a historical artifact from a Broward county park.


Future reference- Certain details are better left unsaid (ie-location). A wheat penny is considered a historical object by definition in these parts, go figure.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Its a shame we cannot detect and talk about it here in South Florida like the rest of the country unless its private land. Its bad enouigh, we have so few places to detect.

 

[scaupus]

i know the city of ft lauderdale does not have an ordinance addressing artifacts, historical or modern, at least not yet. if anyone knows of a broward ordinance prohibiting detectors or removal of findings i'd like to see it. Individual county park managers seem to have a lot of discretion as to what they will tolerate - just from my experience. the state has a 50 year rule for state property i think.

Fl does not permit any historical removals at all from its waters up to the high tide line on beaches.

"illegal to bring up any historical or
archaelogical artifacts (pretty much anything except obvious modern stuff
or trash) from any sovereign submerged waters in Florida.

Sovereign submerged waters are defined as:

Generally, sovereign submerged lands include tidelands and all lands beneath navigable waters, the title to which has not been validly transferred. Sovereign submerged lands encompass beaches between mean high water and mean low water lines, islands within navigable waters, lands beneath the ordinary high water marks of lakes and rivers, and lands extending three miles into the Atlantic Ocean and three marine leagues (approximately nine miles) into the Gulf of Mexico"

So, it seems that cobs found below the mean high tide line at the beach belong to the state, and must be left where you find them.

 

[scaupus]

Most of the rest of the country are afflicted by similar state and local laws, from what i've read.