LAWS - DESIGNED TO DISCOURAGE METAL DETECTING DETECTING - WHY & HOW

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

.... -OR- Does such a Group exist already?

Yes. It's called the FMDAC. However, un-like the NRA, there simply aren't enough metal detector hobbyists to financially amount to anything. Like hire lobbyists, lawyers, etc.... With guns, rifles, hunting, etc.... there is NO SHORTAGE of enthusiasts, by the scores, in any city. Right? But seriously now: How many hard-core hobbyists are there in the average large city? (not talking about those who get one, use it twice, and the leave it in the closet). Very few relatively speaking. Like in my city of 150k people, there is probably only about 6 or 8 of us who really go gung-ho over detecting. Ie.: rushing out when storms erode the beach, or all-over old-town urban demolition, or sleuthing deeply in history books for odd-ball leads, etc...

So alas, we're never going to do something like the NRA. And when you think about it Eureka, you DON'T want a lot of people in this hobby, now do you? haha. Because there's an dimishing pool of items to be found (when talking old finds, anyhow). Unlike guns, rifles, etc... where hunting game replenishes itself, and so forth.

 

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[Ripsaw]

Titanic.....think about it.

Suppose gettysburg was like titanic ? they go around making up laws that say you can salvage on the high seas and claim any ship or vessel that is derelict and abandoned, why? because it is so difficult and expensive to do. with that in mind and their laws, maybe you could challenge them with salvage claims ? if you could show your expenses are exhorbant. what's good for the goose is good for the gander right ? only problem is they say the high seas are not owned by anyone....really ? That is yet just one more opinion with no proof to back it up, just like the opinion that gettysburg is a park and must not be disturbed....opinions gentlemen....challenge them and ask for proof.....they have none.

TH, I understand and happen to totally agree with your sigs, and live my life by most of them too. I just thought it was ironic in a strange sort of way, like the twilight zone episodes or something. I am an armorer for military sealift command, currently working on a contract for the seal teams too. gotta love the guns ! They are the only thing standing between us and all those psycho's opinions out there.

 

[Eureka!]

Titanic.....think about it. Suppose gettysburg was like titanic ? they go around making up laws that say you can salvage on the high seas and claim any ship or vessel that is derelict and abandoned, why? because it is so difficult and expensive to do. with that in mind and their laws, maybe you could challenge them with salvage claims ? if you could show your expenses are exhorbant. what's good for the goose is good for the gander right ? only problem is they say the high seas are not owned by anyone....really ? That is yet just one more opinion with no proof to back it up, just like the opinion that gettysburg is a park and must not be disturbed....opinions gentlemen....challenge them and ask for proof.....they have none. TH, I understand and happen to totally agree with your sigs, and live my life by most of them too. I just thought it was ironic in a strange sort of way, like the twilight zone episodes or something. I am an armorer for military sealift command, currently working on a contract for the seal teams too. gotta love the guns ! They are the only thing standing between us and all those psycho's opinions out there.

Interesting read: 48 FAQ's about the RIGHTS to the Titanic - Who has the rights to visit it - How they obtained the exclusive rights and much more:

[ www.gc.noaa.gov/gcil_titanic-faqs.html ]

Below is only a small sample of the information provided:

Today, the United States Departments of Justice, State, and Commerce (primarily through NOAA), and other interested federal agencies continue work to:

>Implement the International Agreement that the U.S. signed in 2004, subject to the enactment of domestic legislation, including the recognition of the wreck as an international maritime memorial and providing the authority to ensure that it continues to be respected as the resting place of those who lost their lives in its sinking;
>Prohibit potentially harmful activities directed at R.M.S. Titanic, such as looting and unwanted salvage;
>Establish a permitting system to manage any research, exploration, recovery, or salvage of R.M.S. Titanic in accordance with scientific rules;
>Require the application of current professional standards of scientific and archaeological resource management to ensure that R.M.S. Titanic is properly preserved and conserved for present and future generations; and
>Create an advisory council to make recommendations to the United States Secretary of Commerce regarding the protection and long-term management of the wreck site, as well as the conservation and curation of any artifacts recovered.

ALSO a bill submitted to the Senate by John Kerry in 2012 which amends previous decisions:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112s2279is/pdf/BILLS-112s2279is.pdf

Seems to me that it received PROTECTED STATUS because:

1. It is the resting place of victims whose family's RIGHTS or "wishes" may be INFRINGED upon.

2. PRESERVATION by prohibiting access will eliminate "potentially" harmful activities (This insures against "potential" wanton actions by unsophisticated Treasure Hunters). Job security for ARCHEOLOGISTS.

3. There's Monies and Valuables on that Ship that need to be recovered and in order to do so the effort needs to be MANAGED.

4. Ripsaw - you may be wondering how can anybody claim something in International Waters - From what I gathered, it's due to some sort of International Agreement that was made. You would need to read FAQ's to determine who the "parties" are. - Google is my friend too!

All well and good because there is now a Museum that can be enjoyed by all.....the only thing the everyday Treasure Hunter loses on is the thrill of the Hunt and the thrill of Finding. Oh well.....NEXT!

From what I gather, you can sign up to Dive the site for a Look-see only.

INTERESTING........

 

[cudamark]

Yes. It's called the FMDAC. However, un-like the NRA, there simply aren't enough metal detector hobbyists to financially amount to anything. Like hire lobbyists, lawyers, etc.... With guns, rifles, hunting, etc.... there is NO SHORTAGE of enthusiasts, by the scores, in any city. Right? But seriously now: How many hard-core hobbyists are there in the average large city? (not talking about those who get one, use it twice, and the leave it in the closet). Very few relatively speaking. Like in my city of 150k people, there is probably only about 6 or 8 of us who really go gung-ho over detecting. Ie.: rushing out when storms erode the beach, or all-over old-town urban demolition, or sleuthing deeply in history books for odd-ball leads, etc... So alas, we're never going to do something like the NRA. And when you think about it Eureka, you DON'T want a lot of people in this hobby, now do you? haha. Because there's an dimishing pool of items to be found (when talking old finds, anyhow). Unlike guns, rifles, etc... where hunting game replenishes itself, and so forth.

That's why we need to network with other small (and large) groups to "watch each others' backs" What effects us also effects, to a certain degree, other hobbies and professions. Right now, the California gold dredging court case is coming to a head. GPAA, SPMA, etc need our support to reopen suction dredging in Ca. There is also a move afoot to severely limit access to areas controlled by the BLM. They want to close roads and trails to many area claiming environment damage is being done. Of course, that rule won't apply to them! They'll still drive down the same trails and dirt roads we have been able to travel. The hypocrisy of our government agencies knows no bounds! Without us fighting them, they'll win hands down.

 

[Eureka!]

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
Yes. It's called the FMDAC. However, un-like the NRA, there simply aren't enough metal detector hobbyists to financially amount to anything. Like hire lobbyists, lawyers, etc.... With guns, rifles, hunting, etc.... there is NO SHORTAGE of enthusiasts, by the scores, in any city. Right? But seriously now: How many hard-core hobbyists are there in the average large city? (not talking about those who get one, use it twice, and the leave it in the closet). Very few relatively speaking. Like in my city of 150k people, there is probably only about 6 or 8 of us who really go gung-ho over detecting. Ie.: rushing out when storms erode the beach, or all-over old-town urban demolition, or sleuthing deeply in history books for odd-ball leads, etc... So alas, we're never going to do something like the NRA. And when you think about it Eureka, you DON'T want a lot of people in this hobby, now do you? haha. Because there's an dimishing pool of items to be found (when talking old finds, anyhow). Unlike guns, rifles, etc... where hunting game replenishes itself, and so forth.

That's why we need to network with other small (and large) groups to "watch each others' backs" What effects us also effects, to a certain degree, other hobbies and professions. Right now, the California gold dredging court case is coming to a head. GPAA, SPMA, etc need our support to reopen suction dredging in Ca. There is also a move afoot to severely limit access to areas controlled by the BLM. They want to close roads and trails to many area claiming environment damage is being done. Of course, that rule won't apply to them! They'll still drive down the same trails and dirt roads we have been able to travel. The hypocrisy of our government agencies knows no bounds! Without us fighting them, they'll win hands down.

Tom_in_CA - cudamark - I somewhat agree (for the moment) that it's easier NOT to fight City Hall by avoiding situations which would cause one to defend an action that turned out to be the wrong action due to a "TIME, PLACE or MANNER RESTRICTION" ("when, where, and how") of a Law with regard to MD'ing.

I say this only because some of the RESTRICTIONS or LIMITATIONS imposed on MD'ing are nothing but a SHAM and according to our CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS may not be enforceable at all. It is my quest as over time, to identify the ambiguities (vagueness) in written Laws designed to LIMIT the TIME - PLACE - and MANNER in which MD'ing can be conducted then at some point in life (in 5-10 years from now), I plan on possibly pulling a "Rambo" that'll effect changes by reducing the limits on Places one can search for "undiscovered underground objects" (UUO's), getting rid of the Time restrictions of when one can recover UUO's, and bring some uniformity to the "Manner" prescribed by Law in recovering UUO's("the means or equipment used by one to recover UUO's") or any unjust limitations set on MD'ers at the present.

We all should pay attention to the RESTRICTIONS in LAWS with regard to MD'ing. They are not in line with our PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS. Why should it even be a question in any MD'ers mind of whether or not is is RIGHT or WRONG to visit any site armed with a metal detector? What caused the stigmas placed on Metal Detecting? We should enjoy our pastime and work on changes beneficial to the MD'ing community.

HOW CAN THIS BE DONE?
How can you eat an Elephant? answer: ONE BITE AT A TIME......

 

[Tom_in_CA]

That's why we need to network with other small (and large) groups to "watch each others' backs" ......... .

Cudamark, I would agree with what you're saying, but with a few clarifications: Any such solidarity and fighting should ONLY be to combat already-in-place rules. Or places truly proposing a rule (and not just a "random booting" mind you!). Not as some sort of pre-emptive strikes. The problem with pre-emptive strikes is that such "awareness" can back-fire, and only bring about rules and big-red-x's on our backs that we don't want.

There's a lot of shades of grey here: If a rule being "fought" is not one that actually truly specifically says "no metal detecting", and is actually only the morphing of something else (alterations, disturbing, harvesting, collecting, cultural heritage, etc....), then it would seem like a down-hill slide. Because there's ALREADY lots of detecting going on at places with such verbage in place, where ...... quite frankly ...... no one cares (detecting is common place and fair game and no one cares). So by "fighting" such things, you've got to be careful you/we don't end up shooting ourselves in the feet MORE! Like: neighboring entities, neighboring counties, neighboring cities hear of this legal fight going on, it might only cause them to have some sort of "BOL" mentality themselves. Know what I mean ?

 

[cudamark]

I agree totally. I didn't mean to imply that we should fight a battle where the first shot hasn't been fired yet. Doesn't hurt to keep vigilant though, and prepare yourself for the possibility (probability?) of laws being passed to restrict not only our hobby, but those of others. As the saying goes, we either hang together or we'll be hanged separately.

 

[Ripsaw]

...."HOW CAN THIS BE DONE?".....

Well, one things for sure, it can't be done with voting more bureaucrats into office, that's what got us here in the first place. Voting doesn't work and the entire concept is absolutely insane in my opinion. Consider this...If you elect an official into office to revamp the MD laws and free us up for exploration anywhere for example, and they fail to do what you want them to as your representative,....are they your representative ? If they do not do what you want and represent your wishes to the so called law makers, how can they be representing you ? They can't.....This, "I have many constituents that all want something different, and I can't please all of them".... type attitude, and excuse, is also nonsense. They claim to... "represent all of us and try to do what is best for all of us as a whole,"... is total rubbish.

They do not represent all of us unless they do what all of us want. It is a logical impossibility, so why do they call themselves our representatives ? and why do you let them get away with calling themselves that ?.... Just a few thoughts to ponder......Like Spooner said, the constitution and all laws derived from it's creation, have either failed to keep us out of this mess we are in, or has gotten into this mess in the first place, either way, it is unfit to exist........ Not the exact quote and paraphrasing for you guys....think about it the next time you decide to elect someone else to represent you in your MD careers.....it's a logical fallacy.

People always keep saying, we live in a democracy......Nope, anyone remember grade school and the pledge ?..." I pledge allegiance to the flag, and the 'republic' for which it stands".... we are suppose to live in a republic,..... where any man may go out and metal detect wherever and whenever he likes, as long as he harms no other person, or property belonging to another. Nobody has the right to tell you no, including the government or it's officials, unless they can 'first' prove they have the right, which they can't. And no, the statute is not proof, it is an opinion.

I will define democracy for those that do not know what it is, the way a professor defined it for me long ago. Democracy is ten men in a town with your wife, you are gone to work on a long trip, the town decides to hold a vote, then seven of the men vote it's okay to rape your wife, your proxy vote only counts for one and the decision would not be changed with or without your vote being cast, the other three men and your wife vote no, guess what ?......your wife is in for a rough night, and it will all be perfectly legal because they submitted a bill and voted on it and passed a law or statute.....While I know this is a graphic example, that's all it is, and the best way for people to understand what democracy truly is....ask the ancient greeks how well that worked out for them.....Some people have to be shocked into realization to see the truth. Don't think it can happen to you ?...it already has........ If you don't believe it, go try MDing at gettysburg tomorrow and see.

So how can this be done ?......Change ?.......Just do it. Whatever you like, wherever you like.....yes, there will be repercussions from self annointed bureaucracts....but when it comes to court, they have no proof of anything. Represent yourself and ask for the proof it (the statute) applies to you. If they can't produce the proof, they have to let you go and dismiss the charges. They can't produce it either,....Why ? .....because it doesn't exist. It's just another legislators opinion on the matter and means nothing in court.

You can actually subpoena the legislators that wrote the bill for the statute to testify to it's applicability and who all it applies too, and they cannot prove it applies to you either, without using the statute itself, and as we know, that is circular, is not proof of anything, and is only an opinion. It is like saying wet sidewalks cause rain, or saying the bible is true because the bible says so....Hang him, crucify him ! He went against my opinion of how others should live their lives,...Die !... you non-conformist...we don't need people like you asking logical questions about our opinions.

You see folks, that's how it truly is. I spend all my time defending people and uncovering the fact that it is just men and women doing business at the barrel of a gun, that's all. There is no government. The uncovering I do, is the showing that behind every single attack, there is a hidden gun in the room. It is all done by force, you conform to our opinions, or we will kill you. Plain and simple. If you fail to show up in court when they "order" you too, there will be an arrest warrant issued for you. Every arrest warrant carries with it, the use of deadly force to fill the warrant if needed. So every single offense you are charged with, including a traffic ticket, carries with it a death penalty if you refuse to comply. Wake up folks !.....If you want to fix the laws, don't vote....tell all your representatives to go home and keep their nose out of your business....in effect...fire them all.

This country got along fine for over 150 years without them before the revolutionary war. We can again too.....small trivia.....back then the currency of the day was Rum !...... All the founding fathers of this country were illegal rum runners according to the king.....why ? because they weren't going by his opinion and using his currency for free trade, so guess what ?....he made a law saying it was illegal.... that started the whole war eventually.....look up tax stamp act....sugar tax....we needed sugar to make Rum....WAR on the king, how dare he tax our sugar !....other trivia....the night of the boston tea party.....there were several other ships in the harbor....guess what their cargo was ?....that's right, you guessed it....Sugar !......wonder why they dumped the kings tea instead ?.....because they needed the sugar to make more Rum !.......I guess the Boston Sugar Party didn't have the same ring to it huh ?

 

[Eureka!]

Well said. Unfortunately, those we have "voted" for have changed their name from representatives to "lawmakers." They do not use logic or rational thinking skills. They sit and dream crap up solely to justify their being. We should not accept this, but we do because our very capability (and right) to remove them has, itself, been criminalised. We would go to jail and rot if we exercise our rights. Public land is supposed to be the domain of the public (us) and not some governmental being. Federal land is also supposed to belong to us, not those we have "elected" into office. All land in the United States belongs to the people-- anyone who disagrees is part of the problem.

Cliven Bundy thinks so too, with regard to the Bundy Ranch attempted Land grab by the Feds. From what I gather; Bundy is of the opinion that the Feds do not own any Land and have no jurisdiction over him or his Cattle Ranch. Bundy claims that all Land belongs to the individual States and it's Public Domain.

I did some research on a Park in my area which had a sign claiming to be under control of every agency under the sun since 1965. I searched every department, agency, organization, commission, etc. for lists of parks that were designated under their agency and could not find that particular Park on any list. Not even a mention. This includes the Local Municipality that it's located in.

Conclusion: The States get Funds from the Feds for submitting land that qualifies for "protection." In order to receive the Funds the State and the Feds have an agreement of sorts which has opened up a can of worms for anyone who want to Fish, Hunt, Metal Detect, Camp, Hike, Rock Climb, Bird Watch, Swim, Horseback Ride, or live near Land which "qualifies."

TO BE CONTINUED..........

 

[aquanut]

A while back, I wrote to the government asking them to give me one good reason why metal detecting the beach at the National Seashore above Cape Canaveral was not permitted. I never got a response.
Aquanut

 

[Tom_in_CA]

A while back, I wrote to the government asking them to give me one good reason why metal detecting the beach at the National Seashore above Cape Canaveral was not permitted. I never got a response.
Aquanut

It's not that there isn't an answer. The answer that ANY entity will cite you, will always fall into one of these categories:

a) holes, disturbance, alterations, etc....

b) cultural heritage (historical authentical-ness issues, that .... let's face it, even we md'rs would agree with sensitive monuments like Shiloh, Bodie, etc... are better left not open to any "yahoo" to start poking around, leaving nothing for future archies to study more).

c) removing, taking, harvesting, collecting type verbage. Afterall, the moment you "take" something, that technically belonged to the park or entity. Right? Same logic for if they let every one take one stick or rock home, then what's to stop the next guy from backing his 10 yard dump truck up to the park, and harvesting rock and trees for industrial commercial scale usage ?

And those 3 things were probably the genesis of some of the very first rules (or bootings) back in the infant days of detecting in the 1960s first detectors. But what happens NEXT though, is what's leaving you perplexed about the beach you refer to. Because as you notice, NONE of those 3 things pertains to the beach in question. Nothing will be hurt by you digging a coin (afterall, it's harmless sand). Nothing of historical context will be damaged (afterall, the sand washes in and out all the time). And nothing will be harmed if you "take" things. Heck, it's probably a benefit to get that lead and fishing hooks out of the sand, eh ?

But like any rules, you have to put yourself in the mind of the powers-that-be: If they let the camel's nose in the tent, what's next ? So if, for example, the law said "no harvesting/collecting" (so as to stop full scale stripping of the forests of its beauty features), and you come along and say "can my daughter take this one pine cone for her grade school art project?", they will be forced to tell you "no". Kinda like asking "can I go 56 in a 55 zone?" Naturally they have to tell you "no". Even though, truth-be-told, it wouldn't hurt anything to take a single pine cone, nor does anyone get ticketed for 56. And also notice: if your daughter had simply taken the pine cone, would anyone have ever cared or noticed? NO, of course not.

So since the 1960s, when various isolated places got such scrutiny, and word began to spread (random stories of someone roughed up, etc...), then guess what happened? People in OTHER places (like your beach, where you're right it's totally harmless) would ask the powers-that-be: "Can we metal detect here?". And then just like the pine cone or 56 analogy, they were given the obligatory answer: "no"

Therefore, in my opinion, the laws had a noble genesis, but after that, took on a self-fulfilling vicious loop, in the other 90% of places, where no one would ever have cared or noticed, till a bunch of us went and made ourselves a giant red X in need of other's princely sanction.

 

[Eureka!]

A while back, I wrote to the government asking them to give me one good reason why metal detecting the beach at the National Seashore above Cape Canaveral was not permitted. I never got a response. Aquanut

I think it's a very good question. You state that you wrote to the "government." Who exactly did you write to? Was it by email or did you send a registered letter? The silence you got is deafening. Perhaps you should post the info and maybe if thousands of MD'ers would write the same person, asking the same question; we'd find out.

There could be numerous reasons why you may not have received an answer. A few that I can think of: They must have referred your communication to someone else and they "lost" it, they never received the communication or they don't have time to answer such a "silly question." :tongue in cheek

Tom in CA has some good points. He is of the mindset that one should go about their business in a manner as if it's allowed. Detect at times when the least amount of potentially concerned people will be around. Detect responsibly-leave no trace of you having ever been there. Tom's main point is: After all; If you ask an authority for permission and the person you ask doesn't really know the law(s), if any, then rather to say "yes you can," they will more than likely err on the safe side and tell you, "NO." Also, by asking you just brought attention to something that may cause further investigation on something that would have no cause for concern.

 

[Soul-Burn]

I am new up here on treasure net but I will make my opinion known anyways. I agree with most of the laws that are in place(This will mainly be about mining and prospecting as thats my main interest and area of experience). Sure in some jurisdictions it requires an obnoxious amount of paperwork to legally treasure hunt but the laws are in place for a reason. All too often I have seen people here in New Mexico and Ohio whom are out hunting for rocks with their kids or on their own, and they destroy the local area with no regard for the environment. One or two people doing this is not a huge impact but after 50-100 people a year going over the same tracts of land the impact starts to become very evident. Pot holes all over the place, litter, trailing piles of junk ore from people not refilling their sites. We as individuals do not have rights to the mineral resources, nor should we. We must file for claims once we discover our honey holes, and in the agreements we sign for these claims we acknowledge that we as individuals will return the claim to a state similar if not in better condition than we found it. If these laws were not in effect the damage to our parks and public lands would start to become an eye sore, more so than it already is. I go out to BLM land near Sandia mountain at least once a week and the number of random holes, or huge chunks of rocks just ripped from cliff faces is disgusting. Those of us up here on Treasure Net have a different respect for the areas we search and hunt in compared to the normal person. We seem to actually care about the common sense practices we all should follow when dealing with nature. Too many people do not share these common sense ideas though. Look at the Boy Scout leader whom destroyed several Goblin Rocks out in Goblin Valley Utah. Why, because it was fun... Too many people are like these folks. These laws that annoy us are there to protect against the few dumb-a**es out there whom only care about themselves and their own. Anyways. Thats my two cents, I'm a Vet if that amounts to any form of credibility(it seems to one some forums)

~ Leo

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Leo, thanx for your service to our country!

I'm not of the opinion that metal detecting falls into the category that you're speaking of. Like the examples you give of places where people screwed up landscapes be "each one taking just one rock" (before you know it, ALL the pretty rocks are gone, and .... doh.... the park's not "pretty" anymore). Or the Goblin rock incident, or the chuck holes all over incidents, etc... I mean, sure, we md'rs COULD be guilty of leaving holes. But as you point out, that's not what's going on, and we [should] leave no marks or trace.

 

[cudamark]

I tend to be on the other side of this argument for the most part. Sure, there are unique places that we'd like to preserve just the way they are so future generations can enjoy them also, but, too many places are designated "historic" or "unique natural resource" or other such verbage when in fact, they have no significance to speak of. Most of these places have existing rules in place but are ignored by the criminally ignorant or deliberately destructive. No amount of legislation will fix that or keep them from their aims. The Goblin rock incident is a perfect example. It was ALREADY illegal to do what they did but did that stop them? Will adding more laws to the ones already enacted prevent future acts of idiocy? Nope, not going to happen. It just infringes on our rights and desires to "pursue our happiness". Soul-Burn, you admit to being a prospector and miner. Do you think that you should be able to pursue that hobby and nobody else can? As you lamented, if 50-100 of people like you hit an area, the rocks you seek will soon be gone and landscape changed. So what? What else is it good for? If nobody was allowed there, what good would it be? Just a rocky outcrop to look at from a distance? Whooopdeedooo.....