Authentic? or REPO?
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kentucky long rifle Fake or Real?
Retired Sarge
Silver Member
Any markings?
I don't like the way the stock fits, edges look too sharp. Could be a replacement stock. Look how the trigger guard on my 1863 Pattern 1853 Snider-Enfield fits, looks like the inletting on your trigger guard is lacking. Also the lock plate has either been replaced, or wrong type of stock, or something due to the patching of the rear of the lockplate inletting. While all that doesn't mean it's fake versus real, they are redflags.
Clear pictures of any markings you find would help determine if real or reproduction.
I don't like the way the stock fits, edges look too sharp. Could be a replacement stock. Look how the trigger guard on my 1863 Pattern 1853 Snider-Enfield fits, looks like the inletting on your trigger guard is lacking. Also the lock plate has either been replaced, or wrong type of stock, or something due to the patching of the rear of the lockplate inletting. While all that doesn't mean it's fake versus real, they are redflags.
Clear pictures of any markings you find would help determine if real or reproduction.
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Timbermaster
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It doesn’t look right. Stock not original, fit is poor. I’m going to guess a post 1850 reproduction due to it not being a flintlock.
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l.cutler
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Well I would not call it a "Kentucky" rifle. More of an Ohio style half stock. Looks like it might be an original that has had the lock replaced with one that did not fit properly.
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Joe-Dirt
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I think it’s all correct. However when the “gunsmith” was doing the drum conversion he either screwed up the original lock and had to use another. He put a lot of time in making it fit with what he had to work with. I also think the stock may have been cut down also leading me to believe the gun may have been damaged and this is the result of a repair. People have done lots of horrible things to guns over the years. I think the stock may be maple, but I also think the entire thing is original. All the “repair” work really detracts from the value, but it could be a nice shooter with a little work.
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- May 9, 2012
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Not sure what you mean by fake or real.
A muzzle loader is the sum of it's parts. Plus the assembly.
If you are asking if it is a not to be fired replica ,or a previously working (going bang) rifle....Pics won't tell much of steel quality or condition of vital areas.
The inletting is crude. Which is fine. Folks makin do without option of new stuff or parts or service or money for them at hand,do what they can.
Who ever hacked on it either has little experience ,or is cleverly making it look hacked.
Trigger guard mortise is way off. Nose cap not fitted correctly ,as well as the ramrod entry pipe.
Rough as it is ,it's not that bad if some one simply was not familiar with such work when doing it.
Replacing a lock was not overly unusual. A bad or broken part that could not be duplicated easy or hardened and tweaked just right could have been a contention ,or even a failed spring.
The pictured rifle has a set trigger , so it was not the cheapest available options on it at one time.
The barrel has an long underlug(?) so was intended to be for a halfstock. I believe.
What matters in having a workhorse , is if it works.
(Look once for beauty.)
A muzzle loader is the sum of it's parts. Plus the assembly.
If you are asking if it is a not to be fired replica ,or a previously working (going bang) rifle....Pics won't tell much of steel quality or condition of vital areas.
The inletting is crude. Which is fine. Folks makin do without option of new stuff or parts or service or money for them at hand,do what they can.
Who ever hacked on it either has little experience ,or is cleverly making it look hacked.
Trigger guard mortise is way off. Nose cap not fitted correctly ,as well as the ramrod entry pipe.
Rough as it is ,it's not that bad if some one simply was not familiar with such work when doing it.
Replacing a lock was not overly unusual. A bad or broken part that could not be duplicated easy or hardened and tweaked just right could have been a contention ,or even a failed spring.
The pictured rifle has a set trigger , so it was not the cheapest available options on it at one time.
The barrel has an long underlug(?) so was intended to be for a halfstock. I believe.
What matters in having a workhorse , is if it works.
(Look once for beauty.)
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Retired Sarge
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There is something on the lockplate it tooks like it starts with a B, but I can't make it out.
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Retired Sarge
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The following quote was pulled from the document below it.
BLUE GRASS — Marking on an ordinary percussion bar lock of a home made half stock rifle, crudely marked "JOAB HELTON MAKE."
https://archive.org/stream/gunmaker00satt/gunmaker00satt_djvu.txt
ETA:
HELTON, Joab:
Primitive work, crudely marked "JOAB- HELTON MAKE" on top flat. Two crude, half stock, percussion rifles, one with wrought iron furniture and Joseph Golcher lock; the other without furniture, cheap "BLUE GRASS" lock not original.*
And from our very own TNET
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/426482-kentucky-long-rifle-id-help.html
Everything seems to point towards being a homemade rifle, or a rifle put together with parts by a local blacksmith or unknown gunsmith.
BLUE GRASS — Marking on an ordinary percussion bar lock of a home made half stock rifle, crudely marked "JOAB HELTON MAKE."
https://archive.org/stream/gunmaker00satt/gunmaker00satt_djvu.txt
ETA:
HELTON, Joab:
Primitive work, crudely marked "JOAB- HELTON MAKE" on top flat. Two crude, half stock, percussion rifles, one with wrought iron furniture and Joseph Golcher lock; the other without furniture, cheap "BLUE GRASS" lock not original.*
And from our very own TNET
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/426482-kentucky-long-rifle-id-help.html
Everything seems to point towards being a homemade rifle, or a rifle put together with parts by a local blacksmith or unknown gunsmith.
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Reanm8er
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This bears all the characteristics of a hastily assembled cheap kit rifle. My apologies! If you can find a Southern
(paraphrased) Gunworks Catalog from the late sixties or early 70s you'll find that they sold all kinds of versions
of early muzzle loading arms in 3 different quality levels according to skill. 1 Totally assembled and finished
2 Semi inlayed with good step by step instructions, 3 A bunch of poorly cut articles stuffed into a box and you're
on your own.
The individual components were made in primitive facilities overseas and notoriously lacked on fit, finish and metal
quality. The add photos featured beautiful photos (allegedly) of the kit assembled and finished that were in fact
actual photos of identical period arms.
More to come!
(paraphrased) Gunworks Catalog from the late sixties or early 70s you'll find that they sold all kinds of versions
of early muzzle loading arms in 3 different quality levels according to skill. 1 Totally assembled and finished
2 Semi inlayed with good step by step instructions, 3 A bunch of poorly cut articles stuffed into a box and you're
on your own.
The individual components were made in primitive facilities overseas and notoriously lacked on fit, finish and metal
quality. The add photos featured beautiful photos (allegedly) of the kit assembled and finished that were in fact
actual photos of identical period arms.
More to come!
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Reanm8er
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The bad fit on all the components indicates someone that either had no instructions or couldn't follow
them. All the miss cuts and poor fittings to the stock indicate someone that just tried to slam it together
in hopes of shooting it.
The lack of artistic finish and no metal browning indicate a poorly assembled product done in the late 1960s.
Best wishes!
them. All the miss cuts and poor fittings to the stock indicate someone that just tried to slam it together
in hopes of shooting it.
The lack of artistic finish and no metal browning indicate a poorly assembled product done in the late 1960s.
Best wishes!
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- May 9, 2012
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The Bluegrass lock could have been used anytime after manufacturing of course.
The window of being available (at least from the previously mentioned source in Kentucky) has a period from about 1850-1900. Or...Shorty after the turn of the century anyways.
Unless there was a stockpile of the locks for later sales we can hazard guesses of when they were readily available/popular.
Always exceptions of a store of parts surfacing in later years though..A business bought out ect..
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Retired Sarge
Silver Member
Safety Warning
Bigcypresshunter and Huston recently posted rifle ID posts. Just a warning to everyone out there wanting to shoot these Ole Gals.
Today I was doing my second post Hurricsne Michael gun maintenance. The first one was a few days after the storm, it was a quick oiling and storing them in a dry closet where they have been since. Today was a total disassembly, inspection, cleaning, oiling and reassembly.
This is what I found on my 1890 Danzig Gew 1888, this is on the side rail of the receiver/chamber area of it. Had this not been found it would have lead to a catastrophic failure leading to serious injuries. This was last fire in 2018, my one son cleaned it as he was the one who took it to the range.
I always do inspections the night before going to the range, just for reasons like this.
Please if you chose fo shoot these rifles please have them throughly inspected before hand by a qualified and competent gunsmith.
Bigcypresshunter and Huston recently posted rifle ID posts. Just a warning to everyone out there wanting to shoot these Ole Gals.
Today I was doing my second post Hurricsne Michael gun maintenance. The first one was a few days after the storm, it was a quick oiling and storing them in a dry closet where they have been since. Today was a total disassembly, inspection, cleaning, oiling and reassembly.
This is what I found on my 1890 Danzig Gew 1888, this is on the side rail of the receiver/chamber area of it. Had this not been found it would have lead to a catastrophic failure leading to serious injuries. This was last fire in 2018, my one son cleaned it as he was the one who took it to the range.
I always do inspections the night before going to the range, just for reasons like this.
Please if you chose fo shoot these rifles please have them throughly inspected before hand by a qualified and competent gunsmith.
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