Just what does the LDM cave/mine entrance look like?

[markmar]

sorry, Waltz did clearly leave his mark ...! and NO it is as it was the day he left it ...IMHO that statement above is out of text . he says you "could "lead an Army pack train OVER (emphasis mine not his) the entrance to the mine and not see it : OVER the entrance to the mine . the most important wording is : and not see it...!
ask your self . not see what the entrance or the mine ?

Waltz made that statement with the Army pack as a comparison to show how well is covered the mine. There never could pass any wagon or animal pack.

 

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[Oroblanco]

Guess you earned this
If you want to know more than any human should know about Ouija boards you can go here:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/hist...ysterious-history-of-the-ouija-board-5860627/

Or you can skip to the bottom snd look at interesting research scientists did on the accuracy of the Ouija board, even employing a robot at one point. Since everything else has been tried why not get four five old LDM hunters together and ask Jacob Waltz where his mine is?
But anyway, is it possible the LDM has already been covered by a landslide?

Maybe a Ouija board might help to find the LDM? I would not start spending the anticipated loot based on that idea however.

It is 100% possible that the mine has been covered over by a landslide. It might explain why no one has been able to find "the" LDM despite over 200 different people saying they did. It is also possible that the famous earthquake of the late 19th century covered it, as postulated in the Hollywood flick "Lust for Gold" and it is also possible that simple erosion of the soil has uncovered the entrance, or an earthquake or landslide uncovered it and on the possibilities run.

Have heard the claim of the Bulldog was the LDM. Also that the Black Queen was it. And the Mammoth. And the Vulture. And the 'Pit" mine. If memory serves there was a claim some years ago that the Wasp was the LDM and that the Mormon Stope was the actual LDM. The ore from the Mormon Stope was very rich and similar to the pieces from the candle box. One can safely conclude that any one of these known gold mines WAS the LDM and put the whole thing to rest, and never have to entertain another thought about it. One can even post nonsense black photos and say the mine is underwater and has to be seen with diving equipment. However until someone has gold to show that at least is very similar to the known specimens, the question really is not settled. Definitely not settled in a scientific way.

One other point - if a treasure hunter is out there actively searching, but keeping an open mind, he or she might find a rich gold vein, or a silver vein (actually silver should not be overlooked as a possibility especially on the south and eastern sides of the Superstitions) that is NOT the LDM but has enough precious metal to make you comfortably well heeled. In the early daze of Dutch hunting, quite a few treasure hunters announced to the newspapers that they had found the LDM and brought out gold ore that was very rich to prove it. In those days no one would believe such claims without showing the gold. None of them had ore that matched what Jacob Waltz had but none of those lucky finders cared because they had struck it rich. If you are considering going out to hunt for the LDM, ask yourself this, if you found a rich gold mine, does it really matter what name it is called?

It would not matter if the LDM never even existed, and there was no Jacob Waltz. If you were to go out searching for the gold mine of king Solomon in the mountains, the fact that you are actively searching gives you a real chance to find something worth while. Sitting at home staring at a computer screen, proposing theories and arguing with strangers will not give you any chance whatsoever.

gracias por la cafe'

 

[markmar]

Thank you one and all for your input.
I believe my queston has been answered.

To add something more to the image you have created about how the mines look like, I post a real pic, modified, of the mines region.

 

[azdave35]

Maybe a Ouija board might help to find the LDM? I would not start spending the anticipated loot based on that idea however.

It is 100% possible that the mine has been covered over by a landslide. It might explain why no one has been able to find "the" LDM despite over 200 different people saying they did. It is also possible that the famous earthquake of the late 19th century covered it, as postulated in the Hollywood flick "Lust for Gold" and it is also possible that simple erosion of the soil has uncovered the entrance, or an earthquake or landslide uncovered it and on the possibilities run.

Have heard the claim of the Bulldog was the LDM. Also that the Black Queen was it. And the Mammoth. And the Vulture. And the 'Pit" mine. If memory serves there was a claim some years ago that the Wasp was the LDM and that the Mormon Stope was the actual LDM. The ore from the Mormon Stope was very rich and similar to the pieces from the candle box. One can safely conclude that any one of these known gold mines WAS the LDM and put the whole thing to rest, and never have to entertain another thought about it. One can even post nonsense black photos and say the mine is underwater and has to be seen with diving equipment. However until someone has gold to show that at least is very similar to the known specimens, the question really is not settled. Definitely not settled in a scientific way.

One other point - if a treasure hunter is out there actively searching, but keeping an open mind, he or she might find a rich gold vein, or a silver vein (actually silver should not be overlooked as a possibility especially on the south and eastern sides of the Superstitions) that is NOT the LDM but has enough precious metal to make you comfortably well heeled. In the early daze of Dutch hunting, quite a few treasure hunters announced to the newspapers that they had found the LDM and brought out gold ore that was very rich to prove it. In those days no one would believe such claims without showing the gold. None of them had ore that matched what Jacob Waltz had but none of those lucky finders cared because they had struck it rich. If you are considering going out to hunt for the LDM, ask yourself this, if you found a rich gold mine, does it really matter what name it is called?

It would not matter if the LDM never even existed, and there was no Jacob Waltz. If you were to go out searching for the gold mine of king Solomon in the mountains, the fact that you are actively searching gives you a real chance to find something worth while. Sitting at home staring at a computer screen, proposing theories and arguing with strangers will not give you any chance whatsoever.

gracias por la cafe'

roy...i have specimens from the black queen...mammoth, wasp and have seen some from the bulldog......for sure its not black queen...the queen gets its name from all the black manganese...the ore is black and red....the mammoth has alot of red in it so its out....the wasp has alot of copper ..so no go...the bulldog is a pretty close match for the matchbox made from waltz ore...not saying it is the ldm but its a good candidate

 

[Oroblanco]

roy...i have specimens from the black queen...mammoth, wasp and have seen some from the bulldog......for sure its not black queen...the queen gets its name from all the black manganese...the ore is black and red....the mammoth has alot of red in it so its out....the wasp has alot of copper ..so no go...the bulldog is a pretty close match for the matchbox made from waltz ore...not saying it is the ldm but its a good candidate

Tom K wrote a good article on this theory:
Tom Kollenborn Chronicles: Bull Dog's Gold

Some of the best Vulture ore is also very similar to LDM and yet it is not the same either.

 

[arcana-exploration]

sorry, Waltz did clearly leave his mark ...! and NO it is as it was the day he left it ...IMHO that statement above is out of text . he says you "could "lead an Army pack train OVER (emphasis mine not his) the entrance to the mine and not see it : OVER the entrance to the mine . the most important wording is : and not see it...!
ask your self . not see what the entrance or the mine ?

Yes, that statement was only a metaphor, not meant, literally.

 

[Loke]

Not trying to stir anything up, but.....if this statement is true, how could Waltz expect Julia to find it? Even though he did say it was very difficult to find, and that no miner would find it, it seems to me that any hope of Julia finding the mine was doomed from the start.
have a cup on me,

I believe he was taking her to one (or two) of the caches - not to the mine itself. Mind you - I believe it was stated that "you could not find one without the other". However, if it was all that well hidden - the caches would be the logical target.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Tom K wrote a good article on this theory:
Tom Kollenborn Chronicles: Bull Dog's Gold

Some of the best Vulture ore is also very similar to LDM and yet it is not the same either.

Anyone know where Tom K. heard, or read, this story that Roy linked to?

I've always wondered about it...Frank Binkley was wounded pretty bad in the fight at Battle Flat in spring of 1864...his movements are pretty well documented and I could never make the timeline fit for him to be down at the Bulldog in that year, or even a year or two after...he soon went back to CA after the Battle Flat fight...he was also involved in a pretty bad fight up at Walnut Grove not long after, where he said he paid the Indians back for shooting out his eye at Battle Flat.

Another similar name of someone who was on that Battle Flat trip was Stewart Montgomery Wall.

The names and the stories of both fights are so similar I wondered if they got "transposed" in the telling as these old histories so often do. Makes me wonder if the guys in the Bulldog fight might have been different people altogether than Binkley and Montgomery...I always wondered if Jacob Waltz might have been involved.

Some history (and a "historical hanger-on legend or two") on the Battle Flat fight:

View attachment 1754897
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View attachment 1754900

 

[PotBelly Jim]

More Battle Flat stuff:

View attachment 1754903
View attachment 1754906
View attachment 1754907
View attachment 1754908

 

[Blindbowman]

no, Oro is correct, gold is like a finger print a chemical test can define every detail of what other things are in it and what % is pure metal ...you could have 10 that look just like it and none match ... it would have to come from the same vane . and most like the same area of the vane ..

 

[nobodie]

The mine is hard to find probably because of how well he covered it. By now it looks natural. Everyone here probably has walked past it.

 

[Oroblanco]

Just would add that the Bulldog mine was an outcrop when first discovered, the finders did not report any earlier mining activity like a mine shaft, tunnel, funnel shaped pit etc. Nor any kind of attempt to hide it. That kind of makes the Bulldog not the LDM if you think about it. Unless Waltz could magically remove ore without disturbing the outcrop in any way?

Amen to what Nobodie posted - it would not surprise me if many people have walked right past the LDM or right over top of it. It could even be near a highway or a house today, just well hidden.

 

[azdave35]

Just would add that the Bulldog mine was an outcrop when first discovered, the finders did not report any earlier mining activity like a mine shaft, tunnel, funnel shaped pit etc. Nor any kind of attempt to hide it. That kind of makes the Bulldog not the LDM if you think about it. Unless Waltz could magically remove ore without disturbing the outcrop in any way?

Amen to what Nobodie posted - it would not surprise me if many people have walked right past the LDM or right over top of it. It could even be near a highway or a house today, just well hidden.

true..roy..something to think about....but the bulldog was actually discovered and worked a bit in the 1860's...they party was attacked by savages and run off....i really don't think the bulldog was waltz mine...my first bet would be the silver chief....i'm just saying that the bulldog is a good candidate...i guarantee waltz mine wasn't up a cliff and he pulled himself up with ropes like someone on here claims

 

[Oroblanco]

true..roy..something to think about....but the bulldog was actually discovered and worked a bit in the 1860's...they party was attacked by savages and run off....i really don't think the bulldog was waltz mine...my first bet would be the silver chief....i'm just saying that the bulldog is a good candidate...i guarantee waltz mine wasn't up a cliff and he pulled himself up with ropes like someone on here claims

I just had a mental image of a rickety old man trying to climb a rock cliff using a rope! (haha) Thanks for that image! And amen too it just doesn't make sense the mine can not be up on some cliff or inaccessible spot or he would have told his friends about that.

 

[Blindbowman]

ok, if you shot the donkey and cut him up, he could get there ,,,,lol one freezer wrapped donkey to go ...

 

[Oroblanco]

ok, if you shot the donkey and cut him up, he could get there ,,,,lol one freezer wrapped donkey to go ...

Well consider that the only time Waltz attempted to actually take Julia and Reiney to the mine (if it happened at all of course) they traveled by wagon; he instructed them to wear old clothes because of the thick brush. No mention of any ropes and ladders. If the mine were up on some cliff or peak requiring mountain climbing gear and expertise, do you suppose that Waltz would take a city girl (a baker by trade) and a boy there, telling them only to wear old clothes because of the thick brush? Would that make sense to you?

 

[azdave35]

Well consider that the only time Waltz attempted to actually take Julia and Reiney to the mine (if it happened at all of course) they traveled by wagon; he instructed them to wear old clothes because of the thick brush. No mention of any ropes and ladders. If the mine were up on some cliff or peak requiring mountain climbing gear and expertise, do you suppose that Waltz would take a city girl (a baker by trade) and a boy there, telling them only to wear old clothes because of the thick brush? Would that make sense to you?

sounds logical to me roy..ropes and ladders would have been a nice piece of information for julia to have..if waltz thought they needed it he sure would have told them

 

[sgtfda]

Waltz needed a wagon to pick up a stash.
According to Garman Waltz attempted to get Garmans uncle to do the same. Garmans uncle did not trust Waltz. Wrote that Waltz was nuts. I suspect Mercury poisoning. During that time period Mercury was used by all those miners to recover gold while mining.

 

[Blindbowman]

Waltz needed a wagon to pick up a stash.
According to Garman Waltz attempted to get Garmans uncle to do the same. Garmans uncle did not trust Waltz. Wrote that Waltz was nuts. I suspect Mercury poisoning. During that time period Mercury was used by all those miners to recover gold while mining.

you and me were on the same page . but I thought it was arsenic poisoning ,from the Apache trying to drive Weisner and Waltz out of the sacred area . if any of you find a old mine move very slow so you don't stir up the dust in the mine , that dust can kill you ..Oro is correct you don't need ropes or ladders ,but your not going to get a donkey to the mine , the only way to know your at the mine is to solve the clues the correct way .. you can not tell the mine is there ...

 

[Blindbowman]

in fact I will say it again the letter under Waltz bed was his real will IMHO . and yes there is no doubt what so ever if you put the clues back the way they were before Dick Holmes changed it you will realize what Waltz changed in the Letter and it will take you back to the mine ...