July 4, 1782 Birth Token on 1820s-30s Peruvian 2 Reale

[dwayne sueno]

I'm visiting a friend in Rhode Island, and found this birth token not very deep in his back yard.
The reverse is smooth, with "John Thompso(n?) Born July 4 1782" inscribed on the back.

The obverse looks to be a "large standing maiden" type design made from 1828 through the 1830s in Peru. The coin is 1" in diameter (that's about 2 reale dimensions, perhaps?), and concave/convex, the obverse being the convex side. Pretty sure it is a counterfeit, based on the look of the metal and the weight of the piece in my hand. I didn't perform the drop test for sound, heh heh.

Obviously there is a chronological aberration occurring here, and I'd be curious to hear any ideas about it. Perhaps the token was presented to John on his 50th birthday? An interesting conversation piece, for sure...

Thanks for looking, and HH, dwayne

UPDATE:

perhaps these pics are a little better...

i've taken the counterfeit off the title of this one in deference to iron patch.
the peruvian 2 reale that is host to the birth token looked too porous and felt too light to be silver, but iron patch pointed out that it held up to the elements better than a counterfeit probably would have. the lightness could perhaps be explained by the smoothing of the reverse field to serve as a flat base for the inscription, and if there were milled edges, they were shaved off.

further detecting in my friend's yard did not produce anything comparably old, but did yield a few items that could be traced to the late 1800s/early 1900s, including a clay marble (not pictured) and this Providence Police button, manufactured by the American Button Co., active from 1901-1920.

Wasn't able to find a link between a John Thompson and my friend's house, and combined with the general date of the other finds, it is my supposition that the birth token was lost much later than the 1820s-1830s when the coin was minted, probably around the turn of the 20th century.

Obviously I'm guessing alot on this post without much fact to back me up, but i'm working with some pretty thin leads. Still, i'm pleased as punch to have rescued such a neat artifact of colonial life from the wilds of the urban Rhode Island landscape. HH, dwayne

 

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[maceman66]

Re: July 4, 1782 Birth Token on Counterfeit 1820s-30s Peruvian 2 Reale

Cool find!!!!!!

 

[jgas]

Re: July 4, 1782 Birth Token on Counterfeit 1820s-30s Peruvian 2 Reale

Maybe a local cemetary would have data back then on that guy in your area. Not sure how many older cemetaries you may have but that would be cool to narrow it down a bit.. Nice find BTW...jgas

 

[allen]

Re: July 4, 1782 Birth Token on Counterfeit 1820s-30s Peruvian 2 Reale

really interesting find !

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: July 4, 1782 Birth Token on Counterfeit 1820s-30s Peruvian 2 Reale

That is very cool.

Check the composition once you can ID the coin. It may be billon or another mixed metal and why it appears to be counterfeit like. It's great condition if non silver.

 

[Kirk PA]

Re: July 4, 1782 Birth Token on Counterfeit 1820s-30s Peruvian 2 Reale

Interesting piece of Colonial history, Dwayne. Keep it up!

Kirk

 

[jsandin]

Re: July 4, 1782 Birth Token on Counterfeit 1820s-30s Peruvian 2 Reale

Is that writing engraved? How they manage to do it so neatly is a mystery to me.

 

[Tank69]

Re: July 4, 1782 Birth Token on Counterfeit 1820s-30s Peruvian 2 Reale

ok thats a cool find ,it would be wild if you could find a decendant of his.

 

[history hunter]

Re: July 4, 1782 Birth Token on Counterfeit 1820s-30s Peruvian 2 Reale

That is a very cool find and a nice bit of history!!

 

[minton7]

Re: July 4, 1782 Birth Token on Counterfeit 1820s-30s Peruvian 2 Reale

fake or not.. still a neat find!

 

[Nana40]

Re: July 4, 1782 Birth Token on Counterfeit 1820s-30s Peruvian 2 Reale

Fantastic find, Dwayne!
Another member here, Don, found a coin with a name and a date on it. With some great help from other members here, he found the descendants for his coin. Very happy ending with that one. Here's the link...
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,244564.0.html

Congrats to ya!!

Nana~

 

[dwayne sueno]

Re: July 4, 1782 Birth Token on Counterfeit 1820s-30s Peruvian 2 Reale

thanks for the comments, everyone.

i've been trying to find some info on Mr. Thompson, but no luck yet. There was a John Thompson that was active in Revolutionary War militias, and was in Rhode Island around 1782, so perhaps could have sired or been related to our John. It's a bit of a stretch, though.

Iron Patch- haven't checked the composition, but did give it the smallest drop test, which it failed. it seems this particular design was a favorite of counterfeiters because it was not very complex. Also, this piece is missing it's milled edges. could've been shaved, but it doesn't really look like it.

Sonny- the writing is indeed engraved. the penmanship teachers of old must've been real taskmasters. probably had bigger switches, too.

Jgas, Tank and Nana- it WOULD be cool to find a descendant! i'm working on it.

HH, dwayne

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: July 4, 1782 Birth Token on Counterfeit 1820s-30s Peruvian 2 Reale

thanks for the comments, everyone.

i've been trying to find some info on Mr. Thompson, but no luck yet. There was a John Thompson that was active in Revolutionary War militias, and was in Rhode Island around 1782, so perhaps could have sired or been related to our John. It's a bit of a stretch, though.

Iron Patch- haven't checked the composition, but did give it the smallest drop test, which it failed. it seems this particular design was a favorite of counterfeiters because it was not very complex. Also, this piece is missing it's milled edges. could've been shaved, but it doesn't really look like it.

Sonny- the writing is indeed engraved. the penmanship teachers of old must've been real taskmasters. probably had bigger switches, too.

Jgas, Tank and Nana- it WOULD be cool to find a descendant! i'm working on it.

HH, dwayne

But if it's not a modern counterfeit the metal doesn't seem make much sense. Do you think it's silver plate on copper? Billon is probably the only coins that I know of that are dug and look that way. Most counterfeits never hold up close to that. This is just a topic to debate, of course what's engraved on it is what counts. The coin could be a blank disk, it means very little.

 

[jsandin]

Re: July 4, 1782 Birth Token on Counterfeit(?) 1820s-30s Peruvian 2 Reale

>Sonny- the writing is indeed engraved. the penmanship teachers of old must've been real taskmasters. probably had bigger switches, too.>

What's really tough is doing it with a cutting tool, on a tiny piece of metal. They're not just scratching it, they're cutting metal out of it.

 

[dwayne sueno]

Iron Patch- i've removed the word "counterfeit" from the title. i think your'e probably right that the coin is in too good a shape to be an off-metal counterfeit. i couldn't find any reference to billon being used in peru. seems like they would have had enough silver down there that they wouldn't need to be cutting it much with other metals. thanks for your suggestions.

Sonny-

you got me thinking about the engraving process. is it possible that the writing would have been etched with acid, with perhaps a coat of resin to protect the rest of the surface of the coin until the etching was complete? just a thought...

 

[hogge]

Quite a spectacular looking relic D. I like it! Great job on the button too. Hogge

 

[Don in SJ]

Perhaps the coin is as expected, seems like after 1828, other than 8 Reales, that the "silver" coinage was greatly reduced in the amount of silver used, and and coin that is that low in silver and buried in the ground sure could end up looking like yours.

Moneda Feble (weak coins)
By secret decree of Marshal Andrés de Santa Cruz, strong man of Bolivia, minor denomination coins were to be struck in low grade (.6666 fine) silver. This did not affect the larger 8 Soles which were made for export to Europe but all coins from 4 Soles and less were made with the debased silver.
Additionally the design and the date of the coins was to be frozen with the year "1830". Production of these debased silver coins continued until a new design appeared in Potasi in 1853.

According to H.P.Flatt, "while the merchants of Bolivia & Peru quickly learned of the decreased value of the coins, the public continued to be deceived for years..." In fact the specimen illustrated here appears to bright silver and just as good as any sterling silver coin in visual appearance. These monedas febles drove good local currency out of circulation, damaged the economy for years and lead to a war between Bolivia & Peru.

As far as the inscription goes, wow, great find, I am fairly good at genealogy research but the name is sooo common, I got nowhere in trying to get any data on the one who might have been born on that day. It is possible I guess that it was a "death" coin, even though it has the person's birth date on it, since he would have most likely been around 50+ years of age at the time the coin got out into circulation and then used for the inscription. Cannot see why someone would inscribe their birthdate on a coin so late in life, other than to celebrate him in his death.

Don

 

[baspinall]

Sweet find! I love it.

 

[Iron Patch]

It could also have been done to be used as an ID tag.

 

[jsandin]

Iron Patch- i've removed the word "counterfeit" from the title. i think your'e probably right that the coin is in too good a shape to be an off-metal counterfeit. i couldn't find any reference to billon being used in peru. seems like they would have had enough silver down there that they wouldn't need to be cutting it much with other metals. thanks for your suggestions.

Sonny-

you got me thinking about the engraving process. is it possible that the writing would have been etched with acid, with perhaps a coat of resin to protect the rest of the surface of the coin until the etching was complete? just a thought...

Could be!