Jolly Roger origins

[Rebel - KGC]

INTERESTING!

 

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[xaos]

Interesting that on Oak Island tonight when they got news of the possible lead cross mine location being near Rennes Le Chateau they did a flash back scene of their trip to France.

Exactly how did they determine that lead came from this particular mine? Lots of could be's

Always nice to see the trailers leading up to the episode, all end in nothing...

on the skull and crossbones issue...

There is the Skull of Sidon, and of course, the Templars were pirates on the high seas.


According to Masonic legend, the skull and crossbones are the bones of Jacques de Molay. In an effort to seize the riches of the Templars, the Church ordered that the society be disbanded. deMolay, the 23rd and last Grand Master of the Knights,was burned alive by the Church. When three Templars came looking for his bones, they found only his skull and femurs. By this time the Templars had become accomplished mariners, and the skull and femurs of the last Grand Master became their nautical symbol

 

[MiddenMonster]

According to Masonic legend, the skull and crossbones are the bones of Jacques de Molay. In an effort to seize the riches of the Templars, the Church ordered that the society be disbanded. deMolay, the 23rd and last Grand Master of the Knights,was burned alive by the Church. When three Templars came looking for his bones, they found only his skull and femurs. By this time the Templars had become accomplished mariners, and the skull and femurs of the last Grand Master became their nautical symbol

Interesting that the Masons put the onus for the dissolution of the Knights Templar on the Church, and for the purpose of seizing their riches. In reality, it was King Phillip IV who was beefing with the Knights Templar, and had them arrested because he was heavily in debt to them. True, Pope Clement is responsible for the actual dissolution of the Templars, but only at the urging of King Phillip, who manufactured the most heinous charges to level against them. And it wasn't the Church that took control of the Knights of Templar's assets, but the Templar's rival, the Knights of Hospitaller.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Exactly how did they determine that lead came from this particular mine? Lots of could be's

Laser ablation isotope data analysis.

 

[grossmusic]

Tammy from my research I found that the earliest use of the black flag by pirates was by the Barbary pirates in the 1600's, still in use today by the Islamic terrorists ISIS. Henry Every had the first display of the skull and cross bones in 1695. The term "Jolly Roger" was first described by Charles Johnson in his book "A General History of the Pyrates" published in 1724. The use of "Jolie Rogue" does not appear in any historical reference to pirate flags in recorded history. The Templars always used their white flag with the red Jerusalem cross as their symbol.
You are up late!

That's pretty much what I had thought too.

 

[xaos]

Interesting that the Masons put the onus for the dissolution of the Knights Templar on the Church, and for the purpose of seizing their riches.

Pope Clement V disbanded the order in 1312 under pressure from King Philip. The abrupt reduction in power of a significant group in European society gave rise to speculation, legend, and legacy through the ages. It actually was the Church, as the King had virtually no power against the Templars (or money) and the Church, looking to get rid of the Templars, ordered the disbanding the Templars (and not only in France). It was a Church order behind it, that is well documented.

Sorry for thread creep....

Laser ablation isotope data analysis

A very fancy word, that in reality, is about absolutely meaningless. Similar to all of the other 'technology' they have used to keep the series interesting.

They are simply looking for a percent composition of the lead, and comparing it with other samples.
You have to compare apples with apples. As an example, we use this, or a similar process to compare batches of Spanish coins, and the origin of minting. This tells nothing of the origins of the gold that was used to make the coins. Within each 'batch' of the minting process, the coins have similar chemical composition. Each batch is distinct, and each mint is very distinct. You cannot sample a coin and determine where the gold was mined.
Remember, much of the coinage was produced from artefacts which had been melted down.

So, they found no artefacts with similar composition, which is surprising, as lead has been used for centuries.

As shown above, to say that a manufactured artifact, "could' have origins to a certain mine is laughable.

What is far more conceivable is that bullets were melted down to make the artefact, as all bored soldiers know, we sit around and make stuff.

At best, they figured out it was made from lead, other than this, without a match to a manufactured artefact, the results are meaningless.

 

[russ]

Some believe that a Welsh pirate, Bartholomew Roberts also known as Barti Ddu was the first to fly the Jolly Roger ,there were plenty of Welsh pirates including Sir Henry Morgan among others. Roberts became a pirate after his merchant ship was raided by fellow Welshman Howell Davies pirate gang then after Davies died Roberts was elected captain due to his skill as a sailor and navigator. It was normally a democratic decision by the crew to choose a captain,,,

 

[Au_Dreamers]

A very fancy word, that in reality, is about absolutely meaningless. Similar to all of the other 'technology' they have used to keep the series interesting.

They are simply looking for a percent composition of the lead, and comparing it with other samples.
You have to compare apples with apples. As an example, we use this, or a similar process to compare batches of Spanish coins, and the origin of minting. This tells nothing of the origins of the gold that was used to make the coins. Within each 'batch' of the minting process, the coins have similar chemical composition. Each batch is distinct, and each mint is very distinct. You cannot sample a coin and determine where the gold was mined.
Remember, much of the coinage was produced from artefacts which had been melted down.

So, they found no artefacts with similar composition, which is surprising, as lead has been used for centuries.

As shown above, to say that a manufactured artifact, "could' have origins to a certain mine is laughable.

What is far more conceivable is that bullets were melted down to make the artefact, as all bored soldiers know, we sit around and make stuff.

At best, they figured out it was made from lead, other than this, without a match to a manufactured artefact, the results are meaningless.

Hmm it's late and I'm tired maybe I didn't use the proper term but isn't that the work that Oxford did?

[h=1]Metal provenancing using isotopes and the Oxford archaeological lead isotope database (OXALID)[/h]

 

[grossmusic]

Roberts was at the end of the Golden Age of Piracy. Not noted as the first to fly a Jolly Roger. He flew a SPECIFIC Jolly Roger, however. As did (according to lore) Blackbeard & Rackam, the latter of which is most famous & used in Hollywood. Several specific designs are attributed to specific pirates, but I don't think there's much proof of it. Seems like something Cordingly made up, like a lot of his facts (though he's due some kudos for his extensive devotion to spreading pirate lore).

 

[ARC]

Roberts was at the end of the Golden Age of Piracy. Not noted as the first to fly a Jolly Roger. He flew a SPECIFIC Jolly Roger, however. As did (according to lore) Blackbeard & Rackam, the latter of which is most famous & used in Hollywood. Several specific designs are attributed to specific pirates, but I don't think there's much proof of it. Seems like something Cordingly made up, like a lot of his facts (though he's due some kudos for his extensive devotion to spreading pirate lore).

Pirate flags were not called "Jolly Roger" by anyone who ever saw one raised.

I don't know who , what, where or when someone decided to associate Barts nickname with /as a general name for a certain OR any flag...

IMO... this is wishwash spun from childrens tales... there is no "secret"... or "more"... to the obviously childish term "Jolly Roger" imo.

Like "Robin Hood"... the story has spun out of context / control and become some fantasy.

Pirate flags were meant to strike immediate fear upon those who saw it.

I highly doubt anyone would downplay / associate these symbols of a serious and deadly nature to any words or terms which describe or contain the word "Jolly". heh

I could see this being said to a child to diminish fear in children... so I follow the logical.

Pirate history is so sketchy... full of holes... and misinterpreted to such an extent that we are left grasping for truths through vague tidbits.

Therefore I feel the true meaning of "Jolly Roger" will elude us all... forever.

Oh sheesh... I forgot to add...

"Johnson specifically cites two pirates as having named their flag "Jolly Roger": Bartholomew Roberts in June 1721[2] and Francis Spriggs in December 1723"

Pirates were supposedly heard calling their flag as "old roger" once in an article in the Weekly Journal or British Gazetteer (London, Saturday, October 19, 1723; Issue LVII, page 2, col. 1

 

[xaos]

Hmm it's late and I'm tired maybe I didn't use the proper term but isn't that the work that Oxford did?

Metal provenancing using isotopes and the Oxford archaeological lead isotope database (OXALID)

Going to create different thread

 

[russ]

I live in Wales so I suppose I m bound to claim Welsh pirates were the best and nastiest but like you say there are so many stories about pirates, that are made up or exaggerated, the only people who know what the real truth is are the ones who were there and they re all dead so we ll have to go on guessing I suppose.

 

[Red James Cash]

Old Roger was,use to be the nickname of lucifer,the devil.

 

[grossmusic]

Yes - "ol' Roger" is the term I've come across as a true reference in early 18th c. I can definitely, however, imagine that a pirate caught up in the chase could easily refer to it as "jolly" in sarcasm, especially on a mission of revenge, as Roberts was on for his short but deadly career.

And I fully agree that it's impossible to definitively come up with the right etymology & use, which is why I posed the question. When someone states a theory as FACT then no one questions it, I question all their credibility. How do you compile info if you're operating on unchallenged suppositions?

 

[xaos]

Here you are Tammy, referenced.

Records of pirate ships flying flags that signified they were pirates go back just about as far as history is recorded. Of the Jolly Roger line though, the earliest reference is probably of the skull and crossbones flag used by the Knights Templar, who had the world’s biggest naval fleet in the 13th century and were well known for their pirate-like acts on the sea. Interestingly, Templar graves were often marked with the same skull and crossbones as on the Jolly roger (1).

When the Knights Templar dissolved, with many members forming the Knights of Malta who were equally known for their piracy, they also were known to fly the skull and crossbones.
There is Lord Sidon, the infamous Knights Templar, and where the Lordship of Sidon was one of the 4 major fiefdoms of Jerusalem. The Port of Sidon was known historically to be a haven for pirates. Thus, the skull and crossbones, as a pirate flag, probably predates the Knights Templar.

Roger de Flor​

The most famous Templar Pirate was Roger de Flor (1266-1306). He was also the most famous Templar who was a Templar Sergeant, and not a knight. Roger de Flor (also known by his original German name of Rutger von Blume) was a captain in the Templar fleet (2). After he got banished from the Order on charges of extorting money from passengers during the siege of Acre in 1291, Roger fled to Genoa, where he borrowed a considerable sum from Ticino Doria, purchased a new vessel and began a career in piracy.[1]

The struggle between the Aragonese kings of Aragon and the French kings of Naples for the possession of Sicily was at this time going on; and Roger by then one of the most experienced military commanders of his time, was called to the service of Frederick, king of Sicily, who gave him the rank of vice-admiral. When the Peace of Caltabellotta brought the war to an end in 1302, Frederick was unwilling and unable to keep a mercenary army and was anxious to free the island from troops (called Almogàvers), whom he had no longer the means of paying. Given the political and military situation, Roger found an opportunity to make his services useful in the east in fighting against the Ottoman Turks, who were ravaging the Byzantine Empire.

(1) Origins of the Jolly Roger

(2) Templar Vault

Roger de Flor

Knights of Malta​

Bonus: Rules of Engagement

The most famous flags flown by pirates to indicate they were pirates, were all called the “Jolly Roger” and were adorned with a variety of artwork or often no art work at all. Most of these flags were simply black or red with nothing on them. Historical accounts indicate that, should a pirate ship raise a black flag, and fired a warning shot, so long as the ship surrendered with no resistance, they would be given quarter.
Should anyone aboard the ship resist, or should the ship try to flee once the black flag was raised, the black flag would be lowered, and the red flag would be raised. The red flag indicated that no mercy would be shown to anyone aboard the ship.

(in the early 1700's, Old Roger was a name for the Devil, similarly along the lines of Old Nick) Poor Old St Nick!
In the trial of John Quelch and his crew in 1702, the Court transcripts state. .. "The crew...flying the flag of Old Roger, which was ornamented anatomy with an hourglass in one hand, a dart in a heart with 3 drops of blood proceeding from it in the other.. Old Roger being the name of the Devil..." Between 1700 and 1720, the Old Roger became the symbol of pirate culture.

Trial of John Quelch

 

[xaos]

Masonic Gravestone showing the Knights Templar Skull and crossbones with the Maltese Cross



Knights Templar Medal-York Rite
The Crown with the Cross symbol was added by Constantine in the 4th century




Freemason Sword

 

[Red James Cash]

"The crew...flying the flag of Old Roger, which was ornamented anatomy with an hourglass in one hand, a dart in a heart with 3 drops of blood proceeding from it in the other

one problem,that was BlackBeards flag.

 

[xaos]

one problem,that was BlackBeards flag.

​

Well, James, that is the Court record as of 1702....that is irrefutable.

Perhaps Teach adopted it after Quelch was hung? After all, it wasnt until about 1716 that Teach began his career in piracy. (the Treaty of Utrecht was not fully signed until 1715)

(Tnet research re-writes history? )

 

[Red James Cash]

Actually,I don't trust courts today,I don't think I'd be trusting them 300 some odd years ago.

 

[MiddenMonster]

Actually,I don't trust courts today,I don't think I'd be trusting them 300 some odd years ago.

Even if the Court was inclined to indulge in fabricating a record, wouldn't they have either had to fabricate it 14 years before Blackbeard began his pirate career, or create a backdated record after the fact for some unknown purpose?