Jim Hatt's Cave

[Al D]

There are more holes in rock within those mountains than all the swiss cheese in Switzerland.
point is this, one matched clue or landmark has not been indicative of the mines location, so either there is some locations which have not seen the footsteps of man since Waltz, which is highly unlikely, or some, if not most, of his clues are bogus.
you choose

 

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[wrmickel1]

I'll say not all, but most were added by the wounderful flair of novelists
gotta make the book interesting, Personality I think some are missing held by a few that we will never know.

Wrmickel1

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Good afternoon Matthew: Thank you for sharing that story about Jim Hatt's Cave. Had you ever been down in that particular canyon before you were asked by Jim to join you on the trip? I have heard or read stories about the Mexican Miners having had a mining site somewhere on Tortilla Mountain but never put much thought into the matter, however your find seems to shed new light on the story. Are there any other sights, formations, clues etc. to be found in that canyon or surrounding areas that your have located which you can share with us at this time? One last thing. That canyon seems to be a very rough and overgrown canyon. Did you find any signs of a trail leading through it, or to it, or to a possible miner's camp site? Sure glad to see you posting again. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[wrmickel1]

cactusjumper,

Yes I agree completely with that. My interest with Hatt's cave was more concerning the geology of the area and one thing in particular that stuck out.

About 50 feet down canyon and on the same side of the canyon as Hatt's cave was a rock landmark with a hole in it.
A drawing on a piece of paper of that rock with the hole was attributed to Rhiney Petrasch allegedly he got it from Waltz as a clue to his mine or cache.
This paper drawing appeared in a couple Dutchman books, I believe it might have been in Helen Corbin's Curse of the Dutchman's Gold.
I am not sure about the origin of the drawing but Al Reser knew of the drawing from his earliest days of hunting the mine and he had a copy of it in his files.

Here is Al's copy and a photo of the rock next to Hatt's cave.

View attachment 1672111 View attachment 1672112

Hatt's cave did fit Waltz's description of his, "two room house under a shelving rock" as told to Holmes on his deathbed. Clay Worst uses that term to describe Waltz's house in his Dutchman lectures at the SMHS Museum each year.

Best,

Matthew

Well I sure woundn't write this off. I'd go back with the Stone Crosses, That window rock pic looks a lot like the one on the Stone Crosses And they were claimed to of been found in The tortilla Area.

Wrmickel1

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Good afternoon Matthew: Thank you for sharing that story about Jim Hatt's Cave. Had you ever been down in that particular canyon before you were asked by Jim to join you on the trip? I have heard or read stories about the Mexican Miners having had a mining site somewhere on Tortilla Mountain but never put much thought into the matter, however your find seems to shed new light on the story. Are there any other sights, formations, clues etc. to be found in that canyon or surrounding areas that your have located which you can share with us at this time? One last thing. That canyon seems to be a very rough and overgrown canyon. Did you find any signs of a trail leading through it, or to it, or to a possible miner's camp site? Sure glad to see you posting again. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

Hello Greg,

Glad to hear from you and good to see you posting.

I had been to Petrasch's camp on a couple of occasions prior to Jim Hatt taking me down canyon to his cave but had never been that far down the canyon previously.
I had explored the canyon running out of Petrasch's camp to the west that goes down into Peters canyon on the west side of Tortilla Mountain and found a little evidence of prospecting in that canyon.
You are absolutely correct, Hatt's cave canyon closes up on you about half-way down and becomes a tangle of trees and brush, the canyon becomes very narrow at one point. I did notice an old trail or at least scattered remnants of a trail going down Hatt's canyon that looked as if it would continue on down into Tortilla creek. The trail being so old however it was only still visible in a few places and thick brush had overgrown it. Someone had used that canyon in the past.
When the cattle were still in there (up until 1982) they would cut trails up and down some of the canyons on Tortilla Mountain but Hatt's canyon seemed too rough and narrow for cows to have used as they had a much better route to bypass Hatt's canyon to get to Tortilla and Peters creeks.

I know for a fact the Petrasch's prospected mined in the vicinity of Petrasch's camp at the head of Indian Springs Canyon because I saw their prospects and saw their mining tool cache nearby their camp with tools still in it.

All the Best !

Matthew

 

[Matthew Roberts]

This is for those interested in the history of Tortilla Mountain and the place names and how those names came to be.

Gottfreid Petrasch came back to Phoenix Arizona in 1892 to search for Jacob Waltz's mine with his son's Herman and Rhinehart and Julia Thomas.
After several searches Gottfreid supported himself by doing odd jobs at the Bark-Criswell ranch in the Superstition Mountains.
Both Gottfreid and Hermann improved water sources for Bark-Criswell cattle all over the ranch grazing area.
Gottfreid established a camp at the head of Indian Springs canyon in a grassy saddle high up on Tortilla Mountain.

Gottfreid was known as "Old Pete" to everyone who knew him.

Peters Canyon, Peters creek, Pete's camp and Peters Mesa are all named for Gottfreid Petrasch, ("Old Pete").



Gottfreid Petrasch camp marked near the center of the map, Jim Hatts cave marked to the north of the camp.

Matthew

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Good afternoon Matthew: You were talking about exploring the canyon at one time to the West of Petrasch Camp. Is that the canyon referred to by some as Old Cottonwood canyon? I had some friends who recently try to hike down that canyon and never made it all of the way due to the heavy brush. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Good afternoon Matthew: You were talking about exploring the canyon at one time to the West of Petrasch Camp. Is that the canyon referred to by some as Old Cottonwood canyon? I had some friends who recently try to hike down that canyon and never made it all of the way due to the heavy brush. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

Hello Greg,

Yes, the canyon that I referred to going west from Petrasch's camp is the real Cottonwood Canyon, sometime referred to as "old Cottonwood."
This canyon was misplaced by the Forest Service when topo maps were upgraded. Someone who didn't have the right information mis-marked several canyons in the Superstitions and Cottonwood was one of them.
The Cottonwood Canyon that appears on today's topo map is one canyon south of the real Cottonwood Canyon.
Old Cottonwood had a huge cottonwood tree close to where it met with Peters canyon. There was an Indian ruin there and a seep that flowed most of the year around. That seep today hardly flows at all anymore except in very rainy periods.

Old Cottonwood has it's head up on Tortilla Mountain at Petrasch's camp. It's mouth ends up in Peters Canyon down below and on the west side of Tortilla Mountain.
Old Cottonwood is a long canyon and yes it is very brushy for the first half mile or so from Petrasch's camp. I have been up and down that canyon but that was many years ago and today with the growth of brush being unchecked by cattle, I am not surprised someone could not make it all the way through. Very rough country back there, far off the established trails and water only if you know where to find it.



Old Cottonwood Canyon marked in Blue. Petrasch's camp marked in Red.

Best,

Matthew

 

[Cubfan64]

Does anyone know or would anyone be willing to share the dates of the coins Jim Hatt found? I thought I had seen that information at one time but can't seem to locate it so it may have been my imagination.

I did find a discussion on another forum where someone who claimed to have been friends with Jim (and supposedly spent some time working with Jim in the mountains) said the dates and conditions of the coins made it more likely they had been left there by one of the Petrasch's.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Does anyone know or would anyone be willing to share the dates of the coins Jim Hatt found? I thought I had seen that information at one time but can't seem to locate it so it may have been my imagination.

I did find a discussion on another forum where someone who claimed to have been friends with Jim (and supposedly spent some time working with Jim in the mountains) said the dates and conditions of the coins made it more likely they had been left there by one of the Petrasch's.

Cubfan64,

Glad to see you posting Cubfan. I have a photo of those coins front and back but they may be back with some of my things in Phoenix. I think Greg may have a copy of that same photo so he might post it if he does.
You may be right about those coins belonging to one of the Petrasch's, probably Gottfreid.
Also, a man named Zweiner came out to Phoenix and helped old Pete Petrasch for a while, this man was related to the Petrasch's and allegedly had come from Germany recently.

Matthew

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Good evening Matthew: What do you think it was that caused Petrasch to explore Tortilla Mountain? Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Good evening Matthew: What do you think it was that caused Petrasch to explore Tortilla Mountain? Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

Greg,

I believe Gottfreid and Herman Petrasch both believed Jacob Waltz had a mine and possibly a cache of gold somewhere in the Superstitions.
After two or three futile attempts to find it with Julia Thomas, the Petrasch's struck out on their own to search in different areas.
Gottfreid took a job with the Bark-Criswell ranch so he could both earn some money and be close to the Superstitions.
After looking over the mountains and the lay of the land relative to all the clues he had learned, Gottfreid decided Tortilla Mountain was his best guess.
He established a camp there and used it for a decade as he searched for Waltz's mine.
I think he found things there that he believed fit the clues he had learned.
That doesn't mean Petrasch was right or wrong, just that Tortilla Mountain was where he thought he had the best chance of finding Waltz's hidden gold.

Herman Petrasch worked for Bark-Criswell and later doing odd jobs for the Clemens Ranch (Reavis) working for Will Knight.
He followed in his fathers footsteps working in the Superstitions and hunting the mine in his spare time.

Matthew

 

[Cubfan64]

Thank you to Greg and Kraig for allowing me to post photos of the coins...

Below are photos of the coins reportedly found by Jim Hatt at one of his locations of interest on Tortilla Mt. To the best of my ability, the coins look to be 3 Indian Head Pennies (1862, 1863 and 1886) - all in various states of corrosion and wear. A well worn 2 cent piece that looks to be 1864 and 2 German 1 Mark silver coins dated 1875 and 1876.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Thank you to Greg and Kraig for allowing me to post photos of the coins...

Below are photos of the coins reportedly found by Jim Hatt at one of his locations of interest on Tortilla Mt. To the best of my ability, the coins look to be 3 Indian Head Pennies (1862, 1863 and 1886) - all in various states of corrosion and wear. A well worn 2 cent piece that looks to be 1864 and 2 German 1 Mark silver coins dated 1875 and 1876.

View attachment 1674294
View attachment 1674295
View attachment 1674296
View attachment 1674297

Cubfan64,

Thanks for posting the photos of the coins that Jim Hatt found. As far as I know, Jim never said these coins belonged to Waltz. He said they may have belonged to him and looked at them as just another interesting piece of the puzzle that was his cave area. Jim may have used a metal detector at the cave to find the coins, I am not sure. There was about 4-5 inches of dirt and dust in the cave that covered the solid bedrock floor.

Best,

Matthew

 

[wrmickel1]

Matthew

The coins are nice, but did he offer to show any other things of interest or support to findings of the coins. The basic of the time frame, Such as metal,wood,leather,pottery or glass, All things were made of these few things back then. It's would be nice to see pic's of this type of stuff, it would give alittle more insight to who left the coins behind.

Wrmickel1

 

[musician]

The german coin is nearly pure silver, 900/1000. Reliable source, it contains 5 gramm pure silver. So it is possible that they simply used some coins the germans brought with them, at least within groups of german immigrants.
But it has a political message for immigrants too. When Waltz left Germany, there was no german empire, no currency for whole Germany. The term "german empire" had a meaning in the attempted first revolution around 1848. So the print on the coin is like still fresh political news about the time after 1871, when an empire was established.
Could be a reason to keep the coin.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew

The coins are nice, but did he offer to show any other things of interest or support to findings of the coins. The basic of the time frame, Such as metal,wood,leather,pottery or glass, All things were made of these few things back then. It's would be nice to see pic's of this type of stuff, it would give alittle more insight to who left the coins behind.

Wrmickel1

Wrmickel1,

Both at Petrasch's camp and at Hatts cave several other old items were found. It was impossible to tell who might have left them as they were all from the 1870-1890 time period and later.
Several Whiskey bottles with cork stoppers. Other bottles of the same era and type, medicine and extracts used in cooking such as vanilla.
Variety of metal cans, condensed milk mostly, also tobacco cans, etc.
A wood Arbuckles coffee box that at one time held 1 pound bags of Ariosa coffee.
Various coins German and American. (see photos).
Most of the items were found at two separate dump areas like you would find at almost any camp that was used for any length of time.

Matthew

 

[wrmickel1]

Thanks Matthew

That paints a pretty good picture. Predates the Pertrasch's, But I've would have wanted older stuff. Before I spent a lot of time on this sight.

Wrmickel1

 

[azdave35]

Thanks Matthew

That paints a pretty good picture. Predates the Pertrasch's, But I've would have wanted older stuff. Before I spent a lot of time on this sight.

Wrmickel1

mick..the first thing you should be questioning is the source...jim hatt said he found them...

 

[wrmickel1]

mick..the first thing you should be questioning is the source...jim hatt said he found them...

Yeah, I didn't know him personally, But maybe Matthew was around when some of it was found. But I would run the Stone crosses through that area, from the pic he showed, And I Do believe The Stone Maps and stone crosses depict different places. I'd start a fish creek area were the creek goes under the land bridge thing.

Wrmickel1