Japanese Military Uniform Button?

D

Discrimination Dave

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Sep 18, 2008
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Do this:

Go back to your original post and click on modify

Click on Message Icon down arrow

Click on Solved

Done
 

Upvote 0
Thanks BP.
Now this is solved.
I have been considering your previous posts for more than two hours...

Patina.

In my vocabulary it used to be something that built up on my stone artifacts.
It builds up on metal ones as well but as for how it does it... seems as it must be a serious science to me.
Anyway, the old button was dug up in a silent park so as for fake patina or the actual compound which oxidizes, maybe you can point me in the right direction.
brass, copper, zinc, lead or any combination should have different patina?
I would think it is the environment more so than the metal, but that is from my lithic background.
I really wish I could be as informed as you someday.
I have a 2 year old and a 7 year old and a full time job, so I am begging for a shortcut on
metals patina.

help if you can.

dj.
 

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sorry to ramble Daryl,
its obviously brass or something similar even to a laymen such as my self. though black, not silver. wish it was.
 

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Here's some basic information:

Patina is the final result, extending over years and often centuries, of highly varied external influences on copper and copper alloys such as bronze and brass. In addition to the external chemical influences, patina formation depends upon the alloy involved and thickness of the metal surface. Patina therefore varies in color and has different forms, surfaces and thickness.

Patina is formed essentially from the following influences:
• Green patina, leafy green to bluish green, can occur in the form of basic copper sulfate, CuSO4Cu(OH)2, from the sulfur dioxide content of urban air. In the vicinity of the coast it can also contain copper chloride (CuCl) from salt dissolved in fog droplets or copper iodide (CuI, CuI2). It further results from air containing carbon dioxide, in combination with dirt and moisture, or from carbon dioxide in the soil in connection with organic acids and salts, and is then in the form of basic copper carbonate (CuCO3). Finally, green patina is a natural result of verdigris - Verdigris is the common name for the green coating or patina formed when copper, brass or bronze is weathered and exposed to air or seawater over a period of time. It is usually a basic copper carbonate, but near the sea will be a basic copper chloride.[1] If acetic acid is present at the time of weathering, it may consist of copper(II) acetate.

• Red patina, bright red through dark red to violet, consists of Cuprous Oxide (Cu2O) produced by decomposition (reduction) of the cupric oxide formed initially. For example, this is caused by organic constituents of the soil.

• Brown patina is either a very thin film or light brown to red and black copper oxide formed through the action of oxygen, or it may be a thick mixture of green and red patina.

Dirt is the most varied form of a "Patina" and is often a constituent of false patina, as are inclusions of sand, rust and similar materials.


FALSE PATINA

All coatings on copper and copper alloys such as bronze and brass possessing a patina-like appearance and appear as crusty green to greenish-blue crud in contrast to true patina they appear saltlike

Food for thought.

Daryl
 

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food, for my brain????
Im gaging already

oh my god!
way too much.
Im 44 and stupid but i know what is old and what aint.
I don`t however try to trade or sell in it.

you are way out of my league brogan, especially for 4am Nip time.
wooh!
wow.
thanks but, but i have a real job and probably less than half of your cranial capacity.
keep up the good work PROFESSOR!
 

Upvote 0
Is this better? I edited it a bit.

Patina on copper and copper alloys such as bronze and brass results when the metal spends years or often centuries in a the soil that has experienced highly varied chemical conditions. In addition to the soil chemical influences, patina formation depends upon the composition of the alloy involved and thickness of the metal itself. Patina therefore varies in color (depending on the chemicals the metal has been exposed to) and has different appearances, surface textures and the depth it extends into the metal.

Patina is formed essentially from the following influences:
• Green patina, leafy green to bluish green, can occur in the form of basic copper sulfate, created from the reaction of the metal with sulfur dioxide (smog stuff) contained in urban air. In the vicinity of the ocean it can also contain copper chloride (CuCl) formed from the reaction of the metal with sodium chloride (salt in sea water) dissolved in fog droplets that form over the ocean and fall onto the ground. It also results from air containing carbon dioxide (the gas we breathe out), in combination with dirt and moisture. Or it can come from carbon dioxide in the soil (given off by organisms living in the soil) in connection with acids and chemical salts that occur naturally in the soil due to the organisms living there. When the patina is caused by a reaction of the metal and carbon dioxide it is chemically called copper carbonate (CuCO3) – like baking soda is sodium and carbonate. In summary, green patina is a natural patina formed when copper, brass or bronze is weathered and exposed to air or seawater over a period of time. It is usually a basic copper carbonate, but near the sea will be a basic copper chloride.

• Red patina, bright red through dark red to violet, consists of Cuprous Oxide (Cu2O) that is caused by the metal reacting to chemicals created by the living constituents (and their byproducts) of the soil.

• Brown patina is either a very thin film or light brown to red and black copper oxide formed through the action of oxygen, or it may be a thick mixture of green and red patina caused by the actions listed above.

Dirt is the most varied form of a "Patina" and is often a constituent of false patina, as are inclusions of sand, rust and similar materials.


FALSE PATINA

All coatings on copper and copper alloys such as bronze and brass possessing a patina-like appearance and appear as crusty green to greenish-blue crud in contrast to true patina they appear saltlike.


Daryl
 

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Daryl!
Thank you so much for amending for me. I already have a question though after the first dern sentence!
I want to be clear!
You said in that first sentence concerning non ferrous stuff....:

"in soils that have experienced highly varied chemical conditions...."

that is pretty much everything excluding sand that is not near the beach????
is that right?
sorry to bother you.
 

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wow....
I read. (thats past tense).
why would a guy that digs crap out of the earth be concerned with your knowledge of how crap oxidizes?
weird. I didnt buy this and I am not asking WHERE it became old and weathered.....
It was just down the street that I dug it up.
Tell me about the dirt in southern Osaka and how dern mineralized it is... and how it destroys most all off the few artifacts that survive the cement NIPPON .
Sorry, I didnt check your profile, do you have a metal detector or do you buy and sell only?

dj
 

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E-TRAC!
yes , you do,
and I worship.
that is the machine i dream of sleeping with.....
(when wife is at moms place of course)
 

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No problem.

Non-ferrous because iron/steel usually just rusts as its patina.

Patina is a pretty complex chemical reaction. To get the formation of the deep greens and browns, and other rich colors, the soil chemical composition needs to change pretty drastically (from a soil ecological point of view) for the concentration of the chemical needed to form the patina to be high enough for long enough to cause a reaction. The constant variation maximizes the metal's response and creates a decent patina. Sort of like staining wood. Soak with stain, wipe off. Put on more stain, wipe off. After a bit, you get a nice finish. If you just slopped on a thick coat of stain and let it dry, it wouldn't be the same. Same amount of stain but the results are much different.

Daryl
 

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Not all soil produces a patina.

Daryl
 

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Upvote 0
Ok Doc,
sounds like you are in the business of CREATING　what good ole Mother Earth does natural...aint it so?
Throw those artifacts into the ground and wait 40 or 80 years.....
WE DONT NEED NO STINKIN' complex chemical reactions! :-*
 

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As a jeweler who makes Mokume-gane the traditional way, it is necessary to create a patina in ONLY certain metals used to make the piece of jewelry. This is done to create a contrast between the different metals. In Mokume-gane, the only metal in the mix that will react to the solution is Shakudo. It has to be copper that is totally devoid of oxygen and have no less than 4% and no more than 6% pure gold. This process was worked out by the Japanese over 1000 years ago. It's the only way to make authentic Mokume-gane.

Trying to force the patination of other metals is far too complicated for the average person with normal supplies to accomplish. The process is also extremely dangerous as many of the chemicals are in lethal concentrations. Most items produced these days to intentionally try and deceive someone are created by people who have access to pretty sophisticated equipment. It is a lot like the counterfeit operations overseas that produce $100 bills that are so good that the Secret Service is hard-pressed to ID them. The reason for this is that the people doing the printing are using the printing presses their government uses to print their own money. Not presses like them, the same press. This is government sponsored counterfeiting. So for the high-end items that are forced patinated to deceive (CW swords, etc.) are done the same way. They are using extremely high tech equipment (like Scanning Electron Microscopes to check the progress of the reaction) and tend to have the government blessing. Most come from China and the former Soviet Union.

Daryl
 

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The reactions that occur in the ground are much more complex than we can duplicate. No matter what we use or how hard we try. We cannot exactly duplicate the complexity of what Mother nature does.

Daryl
 

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