Is this even LEGAL?

[Charlie P. (NY)]

If It's "legal U.S. tender", the payee has to accept it for all debts. There are no exceptions to this rule.

A community gov't busy body can make whatever rule they choose and it may stand until challenged. That doesn't make it legal, constitutional or even right.

Not if it is posted so the debtor knew before the transaction. Like: ""No large bills accepted after 6:00PM at this gas station." Only Federal banks and agencies MUST accept legal tender. You could set up a jellybean stand and say you only accept odd serial number Washington $1 bills - that would be legal. PROVIDED your customers would have known that ahead of time. You might not get a lot of business but that is your right.

A restaurant HAS to accept legal tender if they served someone without warning them ahead of time that certain denominations or change was not accepted. Like by posting it on the menus or at the entry point.

 

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[Juice in the hole]

Completely false!

If you're a privately held entity, you can choose to accept anything of your liking. You might choose to only deal in goats or heavy set women and that would be perfectly legal.

If you're a public entity however, you must accept any form of legal currency recognized by the United States Government, including coinage.

So yes, I misspoke and should have clarified.

 

[Juice in the hole]

Juice
if i`m selling you a metal detector for $300.00 and you try to pay me in unrolled quarters...I would try to shove them down your throte !
Gary

Standing Liberty's and Barber's too?

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Not even public entities must. A city - for instance - is incorporated and the mayor and council get to legislate how they wish to tax and collect from citizens. The state can set guidelines but the municipality can disobey them (at the risk of losing state aid - a big carrot).

Did this professionally (treasurer & comptroller). Trust me on this as we fought and won a couple "spurious" attempts at punative large amount cent payments (which had been refused) by the same people that always get their two minutes of open mic time at council meetings to discuss alien invasions and masonic conspiracies. Thrown out before either made it to a court trial.

We had a bank next door and sent people over there to have their coins exchanged. A coin counter machine isn't cheap and no sense burdening the taxpayer to accomidate just a few.

We did help folks count out change and accept it if they waited until a cashier had no line at their window.


Standing orders (and part of their review) was to be polie and professional. But they never had to be a doormat or take abuse.

 

[Juice in the hole]

Not even public entities must. A city - for instance - is incorporated and the mayor and council get to legislate how they wish to tax and collect from citizens. The state can set guidelines but the municipality can disobey them (at the risk of losing state aid - a big carrot).

Did this professionally (treasurer & comptroller). Trust me on this as we fought and won a couple "spurious" attempts at punative large amount cent payments by the same people that always get their two minutes of open mic time at council meetings to discuss alien invasions and masonic conspiracies. Thrown out before either made it to a court trial.

Well yeah sure, they can choose to ignore any federal or state law if they want. Generous federal and state funding will make them choose otherwise however.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

There is no Federal law that compels any non-Federal entiy or organization that they MUST accept any and all legal tender. U.S. Code §5103 for Legal Tender just says the US Coins and currency are legal tender for payment of depts.

So you are not breaking any laws if you offer it for use in payment. Nothing that says any form of it MUST be accepted. Foreign gold and silver is expressly not legal tender.

If someone offers you a gold Krugerrand or a Canadian quarter that is not legal tender - but you can still accept it if you want to.

 

[Juice in the hole]

There is no Federal law that compels any non-Federal entiy or organization that they MUST accept any and all legal tender. U.S. Code §5103 for Legal Tender just says the US Coins and currency are legal tender for payment of depts.

So you are not breaking any laws if you offer it for use in payment. Nothing that says any form of it MUST be accepted. Foreign gold and silver is expressly not legal tender.

If someone offers you a gold Krugerrand or a Canadian quarter that is not legal tender - but you can still accept it if you want to.

Well, I guess we will have to disagree. The basis of my argument is from a business law class taken many years ago. I distinctly remember this very subject coming up in that class and I distinctly remember the professor being quite adamant about payees having to accept any form of legal tender; including pennies.

I just did A quick search because of this thread and the first thing that came up is a Snopes article on it. They're usually pretty accurate for what It's worth:
snopes.com: Debt Payment in Pennies

 

[jeff of pa]

from that Article



again If someone put up a sign that They were accepting payments in livestock only.
and you offerd them $100 in $20.00 's instead of a chicken.
they can legally say no ! come back with the Chicken.

 

[Jason in Enid]

Well, I guess we will have to disagree. The basis of my argument is from a business law class taken many years ago. I distinctly remember this very subject coming up in that class and I distinctly remember the professor being quite adamant about payees having to accept any form of legal tender; including pennies.

I just did A quick search because of this thread and the first thing that came up is a Snopes article on it. They're usually pretty accurate for what It's worth:
snopes.com: Debt Payment in Pennies

Well, your first error is that you are basis this on the OPINION of a single professor. I found that at least half of the college professors I dealt with were full of crap.

Second error is that you are referring to a snopes article (far from being "authoritative" ) about a related theme, but not this exact one. They also inject personal opinion into the article by claiming the definition of "legal tender" now means that it MUST be accepted by all, which it doesn't even come close saying.

 

[texasred777]

After reading all of this, I'm not sure what the law is concerning different types of payment. We have stores here that will accept only cash and debit cards. Are they breaking the law? Was that judge in Dallas right, forcing the store to accept a check when signs were posted in plain sight that no checks would be accepted?

 

[kayakpat]

Juice in the hole "Read you own snopes article", a couple of paragraphs down ,it says The Merchant does not have to accept the coins for the transaction.

 

[Juice in the hole]

Juice in the hole "Read you own snopes article", a couple of paragraphs down ,it says The Merchant does not have to accept the coins for the transaction.

I read it and I never said that they did. Well, I did and then clarified about privately held businesses.

 

[Juice in the hole]

Well, your first error is that you are basis this on the OPINION of a single professor. I found that at least half of the college professors I dealt with were full of crap.

Second error is that you are referring to a snopes article (far from being "authoritative" ) about a related theme, but not this exact one. They also inject personal opinion into the article by claiming the definition of "legal tender" now means that it MUST be accepted by all, which it doesn't even come close saying.

Ah yes, Juice is full of errors today. You seem to be taking this penny debate a bit too serious, but I'll humor you nonetheless.

College professors are neither dullards nor uninformed. Maybe I misunderstood or maybe it was only his opinion. The Snopes article does seem to back up his opinion however.

While Snopes isn't exactly a source a scholar might credit, they do have a tested reputation for being right. If you have an "authoritative" source, why not share it instead of casting aspersions so we can clear up this highly pressing matter?

 

[MUD(S.W.A.T)]

As I understand it... It is unlawful for ANY government office or agency to not accept change as legal currency/tender to pay any or all debts. However it is legal for a private business to refuse service to any customers they want. So in other words the 7/11 can turn you down but the county clerk can't...

Keep @ it and HH !!

 

[Jason in Enid]

.... but I'll humor you nonetheless.

College professors are neither dullards nor uninformed. Maybe I misunderstood or maybe it was only his opinion. .....

It's winter. Can't go detecting, might as well debate!

I neither said they were dullards, nor uninformed. I said they were full of crap. Most of them talk to hear their own voice. They force students to buy books that THEY write and then never teach from. They spew opinion as fact and demand students memorize it as gospel.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

At least in New York State the municipalities (counties, cities, towns, villages) are independent self-governing entities that are corporations. The federal government has no law that compels them to absolutely accept any legal tender. They cannot mint their own; so it kind of makes sense they do. Unless they they have a policy otherwise. Every university student that gets a parking ticket thinks he is the first genius to come up with the method of punishing government buy paying in cents. Happens five time a semester - without fail.

"You HAVE to take this!"

"You have to stand there while we count it"; or "no, our policy is no loose coin over $5"

Some specific departments/city functions are going to non-cash at all. Especially remote sites like engineering permits from DPW to open streets, remote water purification plants (that sell water to contractors), mailed in payments (no cash is accepted by mail).

Trust me on this - really. I was Chief Financial Officer/comptroller for a city in New York and treasurer before that. I got pretty good at tracking cash (had three employees arrested while I was there keeping an eye on it).

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Ah yes, Juice is full of errors today. You seem to be taking this penny debate a bit too serious, but I'll humor you nonetheless.

College professors are neither dullards nor uninformed. Maybe I misunderstood or maybe it was only his opinion. The Snopes article does seem to back up his opinion however.

While Snopes isn't exactly a source a scholar might credit, they do have a tested reputation for being right. If you have an "authoritative" source, why not share it instead of casting aspersions so we can clear up this highly pressing matter?

Actually no... and they have been confronted over it. Snopes is a married couple from California... if you can use Google then you are just as informed as Snopes.

Accuracy In Politics: Snopes Got Snoped
snopes.com: About the people behind snopes.com


I recently came across their report on the "Dick Act" which is full of errors and ignores several acts passed afterwards.

 

[Juice in the hole]

Actually no... and they have been confronted over it. Snopes is a married couple from California... if you can use Google then you are just as informed as Snopes.

Accuracy In Politics: Snopes Got Snoped
snopes.com: About the people behind snopes.com

I recently came across their report on the "Dick Act" which is full of errors and ignores several acts passed afterwards.

I agree with you about the political leanings on the Snopes site and have read that elsewhere as well. Not sure if we can discuss politics here in this forum. Anyway we're not discussing a political matter, but rather pennies and their usage. The Snopes Wiki entry is pretty straight forward; meaning I see nothing nefarious.

Accuracy

Jan Harold Brunvand, a folklorist who has written a number of books on urban legends and modern folklore, considers the site so comprehensive as to obviate the necessity for launching one of his own.[11]

David Mikkelson has said that the site receives more complaints of liberal bias than conservative bias,[23] but insists that the same debunking standards are applied to all political urban legends. FactCheck reviewed a sample of Snopes' responses to political rumors regarding George W. Bush, Sarah Palin, and Barack Obama, and found them to be free from bias in all cases. FactCheck noted that Barbara Mikkelson was a Canadian citizen (and thus unable to vote in US elections) and David Mikkelson was an independent who was once registered as a Republican. "You'd be hard-pressed to find two more apolitical people," David Mikkelson told them

 

[Juice in the hole]

It's winter. Can't go detecting, might as well debate!

I neither said they were dullards, nor uninformed. I said they were full of crap. Most of them talk to hear their own voice. They force students to buy books that THEY write and then never teach from. They spew opinion as fact and demand students memorize it as gospel.

61* here, but windy with light rain. My VX3 isn't waterproof. Thursday looks good though with 60 and partly cloudy. Maybe you'll catch a break or just visit us in the sunny South.

I agree with you on buying books they never intend to teach from. My Business Law book alone was around $100 in 1990 money. He only loosely used it as a guide.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

I agree with you about the political leanings on the Snopes site and have read that elsewhere as well. Not sure if we can discuss politics here in this forum. Anyway we're not discussing a political matter, but rather pennies and their usage. The Snopes Wiki entry is pretty straight forward; meaning I see nothing nefarious.

Accuracy

Jan Harold Brunvand, a folklorist who has written a number of books on urban legends and modern folklore, considers the site so comprehensive as to obviate the necessity for launching one of his own.[11]

David Mikkelson has said that the site receives more complaints of liberal bias than conservative bias,[23] but insists that the same debunking standards are applied to all political urban legends. FactCheck reviewed a sample of Snopes' responses to political rumors regarding George W. Bush, Sarah Palin, and Barack Obama, and found them to be free from bias in all cases. FactCheck noted that Barbara Mikkelson was a Canadian citizen (and thus unable to vote in US elections) and David Mikkelson was an independent who was once registered as a Republican. "You'd be hard-pressed to find two more apolitical people," David Mikkelson told them

I'm sure if you look hard enough there have been cases where such examples have been challenged in court... I'm not taking up a side either way in this one though.

I just wanted to clear up the myth that Snopes is reliable... we cannot talk politics here or I could show just how biased they are.

The information they posted to debunk rumors about the Dick Act gives a false impression of the actual acts and laws concerned.

I wouldn't trust Snopes anymore than I would all those "true" stories on Facebook that eventually turn out to be totally fabricated.

Carry on... and somebody search a legal forum for court cases already lol!