is this a old coin ?

[gp]

this was found in spotsylvania virginia looks like a man with beard on front cant make much out on back thanks for any help

 

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Like the way you think ORO, logical, rare. Your posts show it.

Tropical Tramp

 

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[gollum]

Some of the lettering matches the lettering on Gunner's example (see below).

I can't get the GGE on Gunners coin though.

Mike

 

[Gunner]

The coin in discussion is by no means a "LRB" (Late Roman Bronze). It is from the Severan Era. Any imperial bronze of the severans is rare. In fact, you could probably buy a really nice silver Caracalla denarius much cheaper than the coin in discussion (Severan silver is quite common). I challenge you to find an example of this coin for $1.00 or less. Ain't gonna happen =)


Gunner

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Gunner,
May I suggest that you check through the thousands of posts on a forum known as Moneta-L, there have been a number of Caracalla bronzes found in lots of uncleaned Roman coins. I do not have the time to track them down for you, but if you have the time and interest, here is the link to the Yahoo group I mentioned above:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Moneta-L/

As to the value - here is one on Ebay for $10

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ancient-Roman-C...57QQihZ001QQcategoryZ4734QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

here is a pair of Caracalla coins, including a silver and a bronze for the same price ($10)

http://cgi.ebay.com/2-Roman-Coins-S...70QQihZ016QQcategoryZ4734QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

and yes, the silver coins of Caracalla ARE more common than the bronzes, but we are not talking about a rarity worth thousands of dollars here! You can believe me or not, but I found a Caracalla bronze myself in a batch of uncleaned Roman coins about six years ago, and promptly sold it to a friend for $5 who collected Roman coins. I now wish I had at least taken a photo of it to be able to show, but then a photo would not prove to you that it was found caked in green crud among a batch of fifty or so uncleaned (and nearly all Roman) coins I bought as an experiment. I am a collector of ancient coins with a bit of experience in the field, though I have no interest in Roman coins I do have a fair collection of Punic and Greek coins.

As to being "late" Roman, that is a matter of opinion, for you it is not late, to me, anything after Tiberius is "late". Caracalla bronze coins are by NO means "early" Roman bronzes, as Caracalla was born April 4th, 198 AD and died April 8th 217 AD - EARLY Roman bronzes are classed (at least by the majority of ancient Roman coin collectors) as no later than Augustus. So you are welcome to your opinion, but any Roman coin of any emperor after the first is apt to turn up in the finds of metal detectorists in the Old World. For an explanation of the rarity and value of Roman coins for those interested, check out this article;
http://esty.ancients.info/numis/rarity.html

Gunner, do you collect Roman coins? Just curious. I apologize if anything I have said is of offense, none was intended, and if we disagree on some detail(s) I hope no personal insult is perceived as NONE is meant. I hope you have a great day, this subject is of great interest to me regardless of how we classify the value or rarity of the coin involved - it is NOT your every day sort of a find!
your friend,
Roy - Oroblanco

"Remember, we're fighting for this woman's honor, which is probably far more than she's ever done!" --Groucho Marx

 

[PBK]

Gunner, do you collect Roman coins? Just curious.

This might be of interest:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,13998.0.html

 

[Gunner]

Greetings Gunner,
May I suggest that you check through the thousands of posts on a forum known as Moneta-L, there have been a number of Caracalla bronzes found in lots of uncleaned Roman coins. I do not have the time to track them down for you, but if you have the time and interest, here is the link to the Yahoo group I mentioned above:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Moneta-L/

As to the value - here is one on Ebay for $10

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ancient-Roman-C...57QQihZ001QQcategoryZ4734QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The link points to a worn provincial coin on Ebay. Perhaps I should define this further. In general, Roman Provincial coins have Greek letterring (Omega, Alpha, Epsilon..etc). Roman imperial coins are scribed in Latin (IMP CAES ANTONINVS AVG...etc).

I am a subscriber to Moneta-L; however, I don't frequent that board too much. I prefer Ancients.info.

here is a pair of Caracalla coins, including a silver and a bronze for the same price ($10)

http://cgi.ebay.com/2-Roman-Coins-S...70QQihZ016QQcategoryZ4734QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The silver coin linked here is of Emperor Trajan. The bronze is a small provincial coin of Caracalla (Probably from Nicopolis Ad Istrum). Again, there is a difference between Provincial Bronze and Imperial Bronze.

and yes, the silver coins of Caracalla ARE more common than the bronzes, but we are not talking about a rarity worth thousands of dollars here! You can believe me or not, but I found a Caracalla bronze myself in a batch of uncleaned Roman coins about six years ago, and promptly sold it to a friend for $5 who collected Roman coins. I now wish I had at least taken a photo of it to be able to show, but then a photo would not prove to you that it was found caked in green crud among a batch of fifty or so uncleaned (and nearly all Roman) coins I bought as an experiment. I am a collector of ancient coins with a bit of experience in the field, though I have no interest in Roman coins I do have a fair collection of Punic and Greek coins.

Betcha you found a PROVINCIAL bronze of Caracalla. Remember, we are discussing a Roman IMPERIAL Coin NOT a coin struck in one of Rome's acquired provinces. I've been doing this for some time and have gone through thousands upon thousands of uncleaned coins. I have ONE Geta (Brother of Caracalla) Sestertius that is in horrid shape found while searching through those coins over the years. If you let go a decent Imperial Bronze of Caracalla for $5.00, you are a true friend indeed! =)

As to being "late" Roman, that is a matter of opinion, for you it is not late, to me, anything after Tiberius is "late". Caracalla bronze coins are by NO means "early" Roman bronzes, as Caracalla was born April 4th, 198 AD and died April 8th 217 AD - EARLY Roman bronzes are classed (at least by the majority of ancient Roman coin collectors) as no later than Augustus. So you are welcome to your opinion, but any Roman coin of any emperor after the first is apt to turn up in the finds of metal detectorists in the Old World. For an explanation of the rarity and value of Roman coins for those interested, check out this article;
http://esty.ancients.info/numis/rarity.html

Esty Considers the "LRB" period as being from 364-450 A.D.

In fact, to generalize rarity by timeframe is an error as well. You'll find that, in general, Republican Denarii are quite common and can be had for around $100.00 while a Denarius of Caligula or Claudius will fetch in the thousands in similar condition. There are some exceptions. The "EID-MAR" denarius is republican; however, it will fetch over $100,000.00 in pristine condition.

Gunner, do you collect Roman coins? Just curious. I apologize if anything I have said is of offense, none was intended, and if we disagree on some detail(s) I hope no personal insult is perceived as NONE is meant. I hope you have a great day, this subject is of great interest to me regardless of how we classify the value or rarity of the coin involved - it is NOT your every day sort of a find!
your friend,
Roy - Oroblanco

"Remember, we're fighting for this woman's honor, which is probably far more than she's ever done!" --Groucho Marx

Yes, I collect. See the link that PBK graciously provided above. No offense taken. Just pointing out the facts.

Gunner

 

[Gunner]

Some of the lettering matches the lettering on Gunner's example (see below).

I can't get the GGE on Gunners coin though.

Mike

Here you go Mike.

Gunner

 

[incitatus]

Hello all,

This is my first post here, but since it's about Roman coins, I figure it's as good an opportunity as any to jump on in.

It's interesting that an Imperial AE of Caracalla would be found in North America, but not terrificly unusual. I think it's just as likely to have come over here at some point between 500 years ago and present day, and then subsequently lost in the ground. I live in Canada, have several thousand ancient coins (I am both a collector and a professional dealer) and I have lost a fair share of coins myself, which will probably stump the finder some day. I know some friends of mine who even leave roman coins in geocaches while hiking.

Just to add a point about Caracalla's coinage. Imperial silver coins (denarius) of Caracalla are relatively common. Provincial bronzes, which have GREEK lettering instead of latin, are very common, and very cheap. These were struck in the eastern part of the Roman Empire, for circulation in places where Greek was the primary language. IMPERIAL bronze issues, regardless of denomination (There are 3), are all pretty scarce, or rare, depending on the type.

Now, that is not to say it's worth a fortune - Many rare coins, in such worn condition, DO sell for $20 or thereabouts. I would be happy to comment on the value of said coin if I could see the reverse, and know the size and weight of the piece.

Cheers,

Steve M. (Incitatus)

 

[Oroblanco]

Greeting Gunner, Steve and everyone,
Thank you for the brief education in Roman Imperial coins - they have never been my area of interest so I never studied them; however just being an ancient coin collector you do see a lot of Roman coins and "rub shoulders" with other ancient coin collectors who DO concentrate or specialize in Roman coins. My main point is not whether this coin is worth $1, $20 or $2000, only that it is far more likely to have been dropped in modern times than in ancient times, based on the fact that uncleaned Roman coins (and some real rarities do turn up in the uncleaned coins on occasion) are so readily available to collectors today in America, that they are commonly given out to school children and so on. Thus, though this may or may not be an extreme rarity, the odds are that it came from a modern American collector.

That is NOT to say that it MUST be a modern day lost coin. The evidence of cross-oceanic contact in ancient times is (relatively) small, but in some cases compelling when supported by ancient texts and other evidence. That is why whan any ancient coin is found in America, the provenance (or circumstances) of the find are ALL important, more so even than the matter of what precise coin we are talking about. If it were an ancient coin from India, for instance, it would be quite puzzling with but few bits of supporting evidence to argue that it would have been more logically lost in ancient times. There are bits of evidence even for that example, such as the depictions of American corn found on ancient statues found in India, plus the find of two (either rubies or emeralds, memory fails here) gemstones in an ancient hoard that when tested proved to have originated in Columbia, but we are just giving an example. When we talk about Punic or Phoenician traders or explorers, and find that Punic coins which fall within a specific time period (prior to Roman conquest) and types which are not common, (and yes there are common types of Punic coins, the small bronzes with Tanit and horse) then we have supporting evidence in inscriptions, relics, linguistic similarities, as well as ancient texts which say that they were traveling to a land across the ocean and very poorly understood by the Greeks and Romans. In the case of the Romans, we do have the strange image of what certainly appears to be an American pineapple in an ancient Roman mosaic for one bit of support. As far as ancient texts go, the Roman philosopher Seneca wrote a poem referring to Ultima Thule (Iceland) as the very end of the earth, but expressed hope that one day even this would not be the ends of the world. So there is little in the way of any kind of ancient text which supports any Roman expeditions to the New World, accidental or otherwise - however not entirely a vacuum either! The ancient Jewish historian Josephus,makes mention of a Roman expedition across the Atlantic with the express mission of finding new worlds to conquer; which however did not find any. Strabo (again, memory may be off, but it is an ancient geographer and I think it was Strabo) mentions this very expedition as having been under command of Statius Sebosus, and that it did succeed in reaching the islands dimly known to the Romans as the "Hesperides" and can best be fit by islands in the Carribean - and returned without having made contact with the mainland. There is other evidence that some kind of Roman contact must have taken place such as the mysterious wreck off the beach near Beverly Mass which has been casting Roman bronze coins ashore for many years, the "Roman" statue head found in Mexico (can't recall the name, but you can find it easily online) which shows clear ties with Mediterranean sources, and a few other bits of evidence. However though the Romans may (and probably did) have one or more accidental contacts with the Americas, there is little to suggest that any such landing on the mainland ever returned to the empire successfully - other than the single expedition under Sebosus, which only made it to the islands.

A side note is in order here, I have been collecting Punic and Greek coins for close to thirty years and do know the difference between Greek letters and Roman, and yes my own find did have Roman and not Greek letters. It was not in as good a condition as the photographs depicted here, and $5 seemed a fair price for a coin only in fair condition. When I wrote that message here, I had only a few minutes and was in a hurry, so I did not go directly to the links I posted; I did a quick search for Caracalla and some twenty listings showed up. I only posted two examples without checking to see if they were Provincial or Imperial. Apologies for that - trying to hurry always will bite you in the end!

My own personal experience in buying and cleaning old Roman bronzes was fun, but I did not think I even got my $45 worth out of it for the fifty coins, in fact I ended up giving away almost all of the coins to non-collector friends, and I think I still have about six or seven somewhere. Three were utterly un-identifiable lumps of corroded bronze. One particular coin looked like it would have been a very nice coin, un-attributable because of the horrific case of bronze disease that had covered most of both sides. That experience pretty well soured me on buying the uncleaned coins, as a friend had recommended it as a way of picking up Greek and Punic bronzes - he said the odds were that you must find some among the Romans but no such luck. I had better luck buying uncleaned Greeks, though again ended up with several duplicates, usually Philips.

Anyway I am still very, very interested in this particular find, in particular the provenance of the find. If it is a modern loss, then there is a good chance that others (not the same exact emperor) will be found in the same area - if an ancient loss, there is a good chance that others remain to be found too! I am glad that our difference of opinion was not a source of irritation for you, I have enough enemies already!

I would also like to add that I am currently in the process of writing a book on the subject of ancient explorers coming to the Americas, so have a personal reason for being SO interested in reports of the finding of ancient coins in the Americas, and do not need to be convinced that there were ancient visitors here - unfortunately Roman visitors have one of the least supportable cases. There is the enigma of what is called "Calalus" (check out the articles online in you are interested) here in Arizona, which seemed to be a case of Roman-Samaritan colonists coming to the southwest in the period of the fall of the western empire - however the mysterious finds of lead-alloy crosses, spears, swords etc did not include any coins of any kind, and the very material they were made of is in-explicable as being Roman in origin. It is another of those mysteries, but may well be a hoax - if the crosses and weapons were of iron or bronze the case would be far stronger.

Thank you for the discussion, some valid points raised and I do believe this find deserves more investigation. I hope you all have a great day!
your friend,
Roy A. Decker - Oroblanco