Is The Obvious The Answer?

[bigscoop]

I wonder if, perhaps, sometimes the truth behind a tale is far more obvious then we want to allow ourselves to believe? If so then perhaps this is the case with the Beale mystery?

In 1816 a wealthy opium trader named Thomas Beale suffered a sensational bankruptcy, his losses, ironically, nearly equaling the legendary Thomas Beale treasure to the very dime. “Coincidence!”...you say?

As the treasure legend is told, the Thomas Beale party was formed in 1817, this being just one year after the opium trader's sensational bankruptcy. But what if this wasn't a legitimate bankruptcy? What if it had all been pre-arranged and planned?

Now this might all sound too obvious to be true but the reality to the situation is that, well, perhaps it's just too darn obvious for anyone to accept. Basically all it would have required were some planned investments with a few trusted and well organized co-conspirators. From here it would then be a simple matter of turning those investments into hard currency through various shell companies over a period of time. Once this was done all that was left to do was to secretly transfer that hard currency to its prearranged location/locations in the states. And “presto!”....we suddenly have secret deposits being made into a secret vault.

Thomas Beale is said to have lost a fortune in his sensational bankruptcy, the Thomas Beale treasure mystery allegedly harbors this same amount of wealth. Coincidence? The Thomas Beale bankruptcy took place in 1816, the Thomas Beale treasure mystery begins in 1817. How ironic.

Like everyone else over the years I have looked high and low for possible answers to a fantastical treasure tale that quite frankly and quite obviously never took place. There was no mine out west, no trading gold and silver for diamonds in st. Louis and no winter stays in Santa Fe. All of this just being an elaborate cover story for the wealth that was to be distributed later to the deserving.

Of course one will surely argue moot points in defense of the mine's existence even despite the cold hard evidence that such an adventure and mining operation just wasn't possible in 1817-1822. They will also no doubt argue that it would take years to turn illicit gains into hard currencies, which of course isn't true at all when you have wealthy Americans like Girard and Astor on the other end of those illicit deals that the original Thomas Beale was involved in. No doubt that such men could turn a ship full of merchandise into hard currency faster then you can say, “swap”, just as their successful histories illustrate. Odd that these men could still make a fortune while Thomas Beale is allegedly losing his shirt. And who better to run a series of shell companies and phony corporations?

So perhaps we've all been duped by allowing ourselves to believe in the impossibles despite the obvious that has been staring us straight in the face all along? Well, maybe so, but as of today you can sign me up as I think I have suddenly become a believer in the obvious.

 

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[releventchair]

 

[Old Silver]

I, for one, would not argue that it would necessarily take years to turn illicit gains into hard currencies, or anything about the above theory, for that matter. The problem I have is the statement that nothing else is possible. Truth is, such mines did exist in the very area that Beale said. And it's not impossible for the "treasure" to have been mined, if it were ore instead of refined gold/silver.

All that aside, I personally like the above theory. I like considering all possibilities. I do have a question. It does make sense that a man who embezzles money from his company would launder it and then hide the hard assets, until he could figure out how best to distribute it. I get that he might create a cover story for the wealth. What I don't understand is why would this man use his real name.

 

[bigscoop]

I, for one, would not argue that it would necessarily take years to turn illicit gains into hard currencies, or anything about the above theory, for that matter. The problem I have is the statement that nothing else is possible. Truth is, such mines did exist in the very area that Beale said. And it's not impossible for the "treasure" to have been mined, if it were ore instead of refined gold/silver.

All that aside, I personally like the above theory. I like considering all possibilities. I do have a question. It does make sense that a man who embezzles money from his company would launder it and then hide the hard assets, until he could figure out how best to distribute it. I get that he might create a cover story for the wealth. What I don't understand is why would this man use his real name.

But did he use his real name? All we have as evidence of this is a story that begins its narration of alleged events in 1817, but this story wasn't penned until many years after the fact and it was penned by someone else who was at complete liberty to use whatever names he desired and also to pen the details in the narration however he liked.

 

[Old Silver]

But did he use his real name? All we have as evidence of this is a story that begins its narration of alleged events in 1817, but this story wasn't penned until many years after the fact and it was penned by someone else who was at complete liberty to use whatever names he desired and also to pen the details in the narration however he liked.

That brings us back to the fact that many in Lynchburg in 1885 would have known if someone was lying about a man named Beale in 1820, because they were alive in 1820, and would have remembered. To me it's almost certain that the characters and events in Lynchburg really did happen as stated in the story. The question for me is the treasure.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

"TREASURE"...? 1817-1822... SLAVES! 1885...? TOBACCO!

 

[ECS]

The Thomas Beale who declared bankruptcy was a British citizen who lived and died in China. His speculation activities in Brazil did substantial financial damage the British East India Company and the Dutch East India Company. He was found dead floating in Canton Harbour.
Also involved in the opium trade with Girard and Astor, was Patterson of Baltimore, whose daughter married a Bonaparte.
The captain of Patterson's ship, TORPEDO was Mathew "Mexico" Sherman, the uncle of John William Sherman, printer of the 1885 Beale Papers.
It is amazing how all the research outside of the job pamphlet leads back to that extended family bloodline of the man who fought a duel with Thomas Beale (not the British Beale in China).

 

[ECS]

But did he use his real name? All we have as evidence of this is a story that begins its narration of alleged events in 1817, but this story wasn't penned until many years after the fact and it was penned by someone else who was at complete liberty to use whatever names he desired and also to pen the details in the narration however he liked.

Beale's bankruptcy was one of several causes of the PANIC OF 1819, a depression that lasted until 1821, and severely affected the worth of American currency, and the fortunes of many.

 

[Old Silver]

It is amazing how all the research outside of the job pamphlet leads back to that extended family bloodline of the man who fought a duel with Thomas Beale (not the British Beale in China).

The British Beale (China) is believed to be the one living at one time in Kentucky, and gave his address as China.

 

[franklin]

The British Beale (China) is believed to be the one living at one time in Kentucky, and gave his address as China.

Yes and he was third mate on the HMS Grosvenor that went down off the African Coast. It's treasure has never been found even though it sank near the shoreline. And it's treasure was very very large.

He sold some land to one of my distant kin Charlotte and then moved to Kentucky on the South Fork of the Cumberland River.

 

[franklin]

But did he use his real name? All we have as evidence of this is a story that begins its narration of alleged events in 1817, but this story wasn't penned until many years after the fact and it was penned by someone else who was at complete liberty to use whatever names he desired and also to pen the details in the narration however he liked.

The extended bloodline as ECS calls it say that Thomas Beale was not the name of the man that buried the treasure. They say his name was Thomas Read and he lived in North Goose Creek and owned a tavern. The US Government could not find anything leading them to the Beale Treasure in the tavern so they bulldozed it to make sure they did not leave anything.

 

[Old Silver]

Yes and he was third mate on the HMS Grosvenor that went down off the African Coast. It's treasure has never been found even though it sank near the shoreline. And it's treasure was very very large.

Yes, that does seem to be the one. Ship of the East India Company.

 

[ECS]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wreck_of_the_Grosvenor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Beale
These are two different Thomas Beales.

 

[Old Silver]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wreck_of_the_Grosvenor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Beale
These are two different Thomas Beales.

Maybe. But maybe the same family.

 

[ECS]

Maybe not.

 

[Old Silver]

Maybe not.

That's a given. Now, can either of us come up with anything better than maybe?

 

[ECS]

One thing that I have always contended, is that first and foremost , the BEALE PAPERS is a Virginia treasure story.
While compelling information is presented, an ambiguity exists in the narrative texts that freely lends itself to many theories as to who was the real Beale, the origin of the "treasure" and so on. It is obvious that no actual documentation can be found to prove he story, as written, as true-its always could have, maybe, there was this, there was that- but no conclusive proof.
...and so many "leads" always lead back to the Risqué bloodline extended family, leading one to conclude that the job pamphlet was nothing more than a period dime novel with a play along parlor entertainment cipher that has grown since 1885 into a great lost treasure since the publication of Pauline Innis's book.

 

[Old Silver]

One thing that I have always contended, is that first and foremost , the BEALE PAPERS is a Virginia treasure story.
While compelling information is presented, an ambiguity exists in the narrative texts that freely lends itself to many theories as to who was the real Beale, the origin of the "treasure" and so on. It is obvious that no actual documentation can be found to prove he story, as written, as true-its always could have, maybe, there was this, there was that- but no conclusive proof.
...and so many "leads" always lead back to the Risqué bloodline extended family, leading one to conclude that the job pamphlet was nothing more than a period dime novel with a play along parlor entertainment cipher that has grown since 1885 into a great lost treasure since the publication of Pauline Innis's book.

And you may be 100% correct. But until you produce the thing you require of others (proof), then yours is another one of those unproven theories you mentioned.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

AND! ANOTHER "Maybe"... Drug-dealing Thomas Beale from Kentucky/China as "the source" of the "Willis Treasure" in Kentucky; dunno...

 

[bigscoop]

In 1816 you have a sensational, nearly earth shattering bankruptcy of a Thomas Beale.
In 1817 you have the narrated beginning to a sensational Thomas Beale treasure mystery.
Can anyone say....."Du."

Curious in all of this are those dates of deposit that correspond with the Adams Onis Treaty, the ten-year term attached to this treaty also matching the ten-year term detailed in the Beale treasure mystery.

Also curious, is Monroe's claim that, through treaties ending with the Adams Onis Treaty, that Adams had finally secured US passage all the way to the Pacific. Really? What passage? How did he know there was a passage?

So let's assume that there was a known passage. Who did we share the Pacific coast with? And what lied straight across the Pacific from this shared western cost? Could it be, say, China? And where did our bankrupt Thomas Beale engage in all of his rich opium business? Uh.....could it be, say, China? And who, above all others did the US want to financially cripple during those important years of those Adam's treaty negotiations? Uh....could it have been the East Indiana Trading Company and the British position in the west? And last but not least, who held a great deal of the loss during that sensational Thomas Beale bankruptcy? Uh....could it have been the East India Trading Company?

If you want to know why our bankrupt Thomas Beale was found floating dead in a river then one really need not look further for an answer.