Indian War crushed bullet shells?

[Montana Jim]

Many of you know that my partner Wingman Tony and I have dug hundreds of western Indian War era .45-70 and .50-70 military fired shell casings. Almost all the shells are crushed to a certain degree.

We used to think that they were crushed by subsequent cattle stomping or maybe, as in the case of crushed and folded shells, the work of plow blades for the last 130ish years. It never dawned on us that the soldiers may have stomped the used shells...

Here is a picture representing what we usually find.



Research brought us the below tidbit... it may actually have been the soldiers!

Read this General Order from the Adjutant General dated February 16, 1876.



All our relics are from training or camping areas, and not from known battle sites... so I don't know what to think. I also find it hard to believe that in battle soldiers would actually stop and stomp a shell so Indians couldn't recover and use it!

What do you think?

 

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[bakergeol]

I remember when I was in the service it was "Police the brass". In other words you had to pick them up and return them. I wonder if the soldiers were also "encouraged" to pick up the brass during training. However, in the field probably not. I have seen a lot of the Custer battlefield cartridges and although you see some crushed cartridges the majority are uncrushed. This makes sense as it you are up to your a## in Indians the last thing on your mind is crushing used cartridges.

I have probably a hundred cartridges from Ft. Sedwick and the majority are crushed. Later farming, tilling and the walking about of countless individuals and animals probably contributed to this.
But perhaps some experts in this field could chime in.

You forgot "Blame Bush" as the final category.

George

 

[doozis]

It sounds like the soldiers , animals and tractors are all probably to
blame. I don't know if the ground freezing and thawing would have
anything to do with it or not.
What ever the case I'm sure Bush is somehow responsible

Doozis

 

[rebelLT]

I dont know either way. I would think that the logistics of reloading would be tough under the primative conditions. Have you ever seen a projectile like this? I have found plenty of civil war era stuff though not one like this? The photo of the round is with a ringtale. thanks.

 

[Montana Jim]

rebelLT - It's fine with me that you posted here and asked... but I'm no bullet kinda guy. If you start a new post in the what is it forum, with specifics like measurements and weight - I bet you get some fast and good replies... You're question will prolly be lost on this post... LOL

Left Bullet: Looks like...

Carbine - 1861
Caliber: .52
Diameter: .542
Length: 1.039
Weight: 448
Rings: 3
Base Type: 4
Cavity Type: -
Weapon: Carbine
Cartridge: Paper
Load Type: Breech
Ignition Type: Percussion Cap
Used By: CSA

Right Bullet:

No idea...

 

[bakergeol]

rebelLT - It's fine with me that you posted here and asked... but I'm no bullet kinda guy. If you start a new post in the what is it forum, with specifics like measurements and weight - I bet you get some fast and good replies... You're question will prolly be lost on this post... LOL

Left Bullet: Looks like...

Carbine - 1861
Caliber: .52
Diameter: .542
Length: 1.039
Weight: 448
Rings: 3
Base Type: 4
Cavity Type: -
Weapon: Carbine
Cartridge: Paper
Load Type: Breech
Ignition Type: Percussion Cap
Used By: CSA

Right Bullet:

No idea...

RebelLT
Montana Jim is correct. There are bullet books out there and armed with the weight, length, and diameter one can readily identify all CW bullets.( Civil War Projectiles McKee and Mason.)

Looks like Jim is correct. Looks like Sharps carbine on the left one.

George

 

[rcuya0]

I am pretty sure I remember reading a post of a guy posting Indian war finds and he had uncrushed ones and mentioned they where rare because they soldiers crushed them to keep the Indians from getting them.

 

[Montana Jim]

I am pretty sure I remember reading a post of a guy posting Indian war finds and he had uncrushed ones and mentioned they where rare because they soldiers crushed them to keep the Indians from getting them.

Hmmm... very intersting... maybe he saw this same general order! Or maybe that was a comment I made a long time ago... I dunno.

Thanks for responding!

 

[NewsMan]

If it was a general order you can bet that the brass in camp and at the range would be crushed. I would bet many battlefield ones would be too just out of habit. There was a lot of downtime on battlefields post engagement and I'll bet one of the boredom busters was stepping on shell casings. And just by looking at the way the shells were lined up for the picture you can almost imagine guys laying out a few side by side and putting a heel to them.

 

[BosnMate]

I detected a battle site that had been hit hard in the past. I found nothing in the location that the Indians were supposed to be. However I did find one crushed 45-70 case, two non smashed that had ejected into a crack in the rocks, which I actually found with the top of the coil, sweeping just below the rock, and two dropped, loaded 45-70's in the same hole, at about two inches. The ones in the crack in the rock which had a sage bush growing out of it were no doubt not seen by any trooper or Indian. The Springfield "trapdoor" carbine and rifle really kicks the empty brass out a long way, and in a brushy or grassy situation I think the empty's would be hard to find, especially if a trooper was in a firefight. I know they are hard to find, because I shoot both a rifle and carbine, and save the brass for reloading, so that comes from first hand experience. On another note about Indians reloading empty brass. The 45-70 ammunition that was manufactured starting in 1873, and for several years there after were inside primed. There was no head stamp, and no primer showing, with no hole for a primer to be replaced. so one would think that they would be impossible to reload. In my collection, I have an inside primed empty brass that has a hold punched in the base, and I assumed that someone had a firing pin that was too long, or the head space was bad or for some reason the firing pin punched a hole in the base of the cartridge. However, I might be wrong on that assumption. I've never researched this myself, but I did read one time, in one place that the Indians would take inside primed empty brass, use an awl and punch a hole in the base of the case. They would then place a musket cap into the hole as a primer, and drop a small rock in on top of that, then the powder and bullet. It sounds very crude, but thinking about it, I think if one was careful, kept everything dry, and was using a top hat type of musket cap so that it wouldn't fall out of the brass, it should work. However I'm not going to try in with one of my guns, mostly because I don't want that rock sanding the inside of the barrel.

 

[allan]

I remember that post, the indians were using percussion primers to reload the ammo

 

[kuger]

Yes,and they also would bend the barrels of dis functional firearms

 

[BosnMate]

Yes,and they also would bend the barrels of dis functional firearms

I have seen photo's of a couple of trade musket barrels that were flattened and turned 90 degrees on one end, being made into hide scrapers, but have never seen any bent barrel guns, or even photos of bent barrel guns.

 

[allan]

Here is a link , near the bottom of the page http://www.oldammo.com/april04.htm

 

[BosnMate]

Here is a link , near the bottom of the page http://www.oldammo.com/april04.htm

Thanks, I feel much better about passing the information along about the Indians reloading the inside primed brass. I didn't really trust my first source. And I'm tickled to know that I have an Indian reloaded case, because before I sure didn't know why the hole was in the base.

 

[kuger]

Yes,and they also would bend the barrels of dis functional firearms

I have seen photo's of a couple of trade musket barrels that were flattened and turned 90 degrees on one end, being made into hide scrapers, but have never seen any bent barrel guns, or even photos of bent barrel guns.

Well,it was common...and I have found em

 

[kuger]

Here is a link , near the bottom of the page http://www.oldammo.com/april04.htm

Thanks, I feel much better about passing the information along about the Indians reloading the inside primed brass. I didn't really trust my first source. And I'm tickled to know that I have an Indian reloaded case, because before I sure didn't know why the hole was in the base.

It was more likely used as a Tinkler but you can tell the story any way you wish.....VERY common use of spent casings was for the Indians to poke a hole in the top,run a leather thong through and knot it.Decoration on shirts etc