Incass treasures

[Goodyguy]

Re: Incas's treasures

Keep going guys, I am eating this up. I love adventures!
And you guys have had some great ones.

GG~

 

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[lamar]

Re: Incas's treasures

Dear johnnyi;
It just so happens that I live in Bolivia, my friend. Might I enquire as to which part of the Andes were you in?
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Springfield]

Re: Incas's treasures

Say, Lamar, what are the current political traveling conditions for Americans at Tiahuanaco/Pumapunku?

 

[lamar]

Re: Incas's treasures

Dear springfield;
As far as I am aware, the current political situation is as calm as can be expected, my friend, except for the occasional roadblock by people protesting the government. Tiahuanaco and Puma Punku are great day trips from La Paz and they are quite spectacular. Also, Cuzco and Machu Picchu is a very nice trip from La Paz. Take one of the many ferry boats across Lake Titicaca, then continue onwards by train into Cuzco.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[johnnyi]

Re: Incas's treasures

Hi Lamar. Nice to meet you. When we have time perhaps you can tell me how things have changed there. My diary is stored away so I must spell phonetically. We were near the little villiage of Inquisibe (sp?) in the cubio conco (sp? ). It lies above the Inquisibe river. Plazuela sits on a small plateau where the rio negro meets the inquisibe. From La Paz it's about a days ride by truck, and another day and a half by mule.

 

[lamar]

Re: Incas's treasures

Dear johnnyi;
Change Bolivia Unless you were here like 350 years ago, I'd say that very little has changed, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Springfield]

Re: Incas's treasures

Dear springfield;
As far as I am aware, the current political situation is as calm as can be expected, my friend, except for the occasional roadblock by people protesting the government. Tiahuanaco and Puma Punku are great day trips from La Paz and they are quite spectacular. Also, Cuzco and Machu Picchu is a very nice trip from La Paz. Take one of the many ferry boats across Lake Titicaca, then continue onwards by train into Cuzco.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Thanks for the info.

 

[SHERMANVILLE ILLINOIS]

Re: Incas's treasures

Interesting post.



all have a good un................
SHERMANVILLE

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Incas's treasures

Ladies & gentlemen: Many years ago it was brought to my attention by Erik, the gentleman responsible for my lost land grant on the upper Amazon in Brazil, that there was a rumor that some one had found a low, succulent plant that had excellent silicon dissolving proprieties. This was supposedly what the Incas used to construct the huge irregular stone walls.

One theory has been that they simply chisled and ground them into place. A simple glance will tell you that this is impossible due to the many conflicting planes.

Dissolving / softening the silicon in the blocks explains adequately how it could have been done. Placing the blocks in place with softened sides, then letting them set up similar to cement .

Have any of you Ladies, gentlemen heard anymore of this?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Daryl Friesen]

Re: Incas's treasures

Hello,

I also have a great interest in all things Inca. I hope to get to South America one of these days. Anyway, I thought I would share this little write up from my archives about Inca Treasure still waiting to be found.

The very ancient ruined city of Tiahuanaco on the south shore of Lake Titicaca in Bolivia, there is a great treasure to be found, treasure that the early conquistadors missed. In the original buildings throughout the city the gigantic stone blocks of which they were constructed were all held fast together by huge staples, or "keys" of solid silver. The Spaniards pulled out and made off with a great number of these, and occasionally some are found today, but the city ruins, if excavated systematically, would undoubtedly yield tons of these great staples.

Immense quantities remain buried under the fallen walls and rubble. There is hidden away somewhere in the crumbling ruins of Tiahuanaco a great hoard of magnificent golden objects, utensils and other ancient relics placed there by the original inhabitants beyond the reach of plundering Spanish hands. In the mountains of the province of Inquisivi, La Paz, in the district of Palca, 65 kilometers west of Cochambamba, northwest over the Cordillera del Turnarii is hidden the Sacambaja Treasure hoard.

One document states the cache was made by the Incas, while yet another says that the Jesuits, before their expulsion from the Americas in 1767, hid enormous quantities of gold in Tapadas along the Rio Sacambaja.
In an expedition around 1900, Cecil H. Prodgers came upon the following, remarkable document relating to the "Caballo Cunco Treasure," buried by the Jesuits:
"If you find a steep hill all covered with dense forest, the top of which is flat, with long grasses growing, from where you can see the River Sacambaja on three sides, you will discover on the top of it, in the middle of the long grass, a large stone shaped like an egg, so big that it took 500 Indians to place it there.
"If you dig down underneath this stone for five yards you will find the roof of a large cave, which it took 500 men 2 1/2 years to hollow out. The roof is 70 yards long, and there is two compartments and a long narrow passage leading from the room on the east side to the main entrance 200 yards away. If you proceed along the passage, on reaching the door, you must exercise great care in opening.
"The door is a large iron one, and inside on the right you will find an image made of pure gold three feet high, the eyes of which are two large diamonds. This image was placed there for the good of mankind. You will find in the first room 37 large heaps of gold, in the second room, a large box and 37 big heaps of gold.
"On entering the second room, you will find in the righthand corner a large box clumped with three iron bars; inside this box is 90,000 dollars in silver money, and 37 big heaps of gold. Distributed in the hollows on either side of the tunnel and the two rooms are all together 163 heaps of gold, of which the value has been estimated at $60,000,000.
"The walls of the two rooms have been strengthened with large blocks of granite; from the roof downwards the distance is five yards more. The top of the roof is portioned off into three distinct esplandes, and the whole has been well covered over for a depth of five yards with earth and stone. When you come to a place 20 feet high, a wall so wide that two men can easily ride abreast, cross the river and you will find the church, monastery and other buildings.
"Great care must be taken on entering these rooms, as enough poison to kill a regiment has been laid about." The monastery mentioned was built by the Jesuits in 1635 and abandoned in 1735. The treasure represents 11 year's accumulated workings of the gold mines of El Carmen and Tres Titilias, and from the gold and diamond washings carried on near Santa Cruz by 2,000 Indians directed by Jesuit fathers. All of this treasure was hidden in the hill, except for $350,000 for each priest.
Mr. Prodgers was shown this document by a lady descended from one of the brothers of one of the Jesuits of the gold mine. President Malgarejo of Bolivia headed one expedition and another was started out from Valparaiso in 1895, but both failed to find the treasure. An Englishman dug around the banks of the Rio Sacambaya and finally unearthed a silver crucifix and a parchment which read:
"Ye who reach this place withdraw. The spot is dedicated to the Lord, and he who dares break in and steal, on him shall there fall a dolorous death in this world, and eternal condemnation in the next. The riches herein belong to God, and not to men."
This expedition also unearthed the skeletons of 300 Indians in a cave covered by a landslide which had not the look of being made by nature. The Indian workers employed by the expedition refused to work further and the explorations ended.In the immediate area of the Jesuit treasure (#7), Indians found a cache of silver in a mound near the river where a previous owner had found $100,000 worth of silver. All around Sacambaya can be found rich gold-bearing reefs. The ancient gold mines of the Incas were located towards the country of the Moxos, a tribe of Indians inhabiting the lands around the headquarters of the Madeira and both banks of the Mamore Rivers.

There were a great number of mines here. The Incas extracted gold from many mines around the headwaters of the Madeira and Mamore Rivers. There is much wealth awaiting the treasure hunter who locates these ancient workings as well as the ancient Indian cemeteries located nearby. The most fruitful source of silver in the New World was at the famous mine of Potosi in Bolivia. It is reasonably assured that a great many caches of treasure were secreted in this area over several centuries. The country of Bolivia abounds in lost gold, silver, lapis lazuli and mercury mines of great richness once worked extensively by the Incas, followed by the Jesuits, then abandoned during the revolutionary days.

From the Spindle Archives
Author:Unknown

Hope you enjoy
Daryl Friesen
www.spindlequest.com/ecuador.html

 

[johnnyi]

Re: Incas's treasures

Daryl, Thank you for posting this link on the Plazueal treasure, or as it is referred to in your article, the sacambaja treasure. This is precisely the treasure which we searched for twenty years ago. The photo I put up of Bud is the ruins of the plazuela itself.

As I mentioned in earlier posts, we found the inca "city" mentioned in your text, which was virtually untouched except for the half day expedition in the 60's, and by the local indians themselves who had hunted for treasure for a couple centuries using the age old practice of "witch doctors" and prodding the ground with poles for sound. Although we spent several weeks at the site, it is still ripe for archeological excavation due to the huge amounts of soil accumulated at the bottom of the hillside directly in back of the spanish structure.

Regarding prodgers, the next attempt, and the rest of the details of the article, yes, it is true that they searched for the treasure. Where he and others searched however, was accross the rio inquicibe on a cooresponding mountain perhaps a mile distant. (I'll see if I can dig up pictures) Bud and Nick crossed the river (I stayed behind) and they found what was left of the cave's entrance, as well as the remains of bases used to support the steam driven equipment. It was a vast enterprise, which, if the treasure was in fact there, pretty much doomked any future recovery due to dynamite.

We believed the gold cross supposedly found there was a plant; something to "salt" the project to produce investors. Personally I do not believe the treasure, if there is one, is buried on that side of the river.

As I mentioned, we followed the route from inquicibe, down the mountain and down the river by mule. Perhaps a three quarter of a day march down the river we did find the remains of prodger's mill. It was a small mud and stick structure which still had the remains of some of the dried goatskin roof. In the river bed itself in the area ofd the plateau and Plazuela we found the remains of the old water wheel which was contructed out of wood, and was the type which looked more like a turbine, with the few remaining paddles forming a "screw" mechanism.

The treasure was, as the article stated, supposedly sealed with an iron door. When I found the huge pair of chains on the last day (before the weather turned us away) I believed this may have had something to do with the cave. Upon reflection however, I think for usre the chains wewre to suport a crucible, and I also believe the "iron door" was a fabrication. For one thing, it would have been an extremely rare thing to have existed on this remote local, and for another , it would have been unecessary as the cave was supposedly sealed so it could not be found. (this fact too makes the cave of Podger's seem implausible as a hiding place, as it too visible and hard to disguise.

I've been busy detecting lately and lax in getting more material up about this treasure. I'll dig up a few more pictures, and try again to photograph the chains small enough so they can be posted. as I said earlier in a post, I don't personally have much faith in the treasure story now, but I do believe that there are smaller caches hidden away, simply because it would be human nature to do so during such temultuous times.

By now the site has probably been searched farther. Three of us hit the entire hillside with detectors so I don't know what could still be found in the immediate area. I would not evfen waste my time across the river though. As I mentioned, our twin box was not working so that would be the tool to use near the plazuela. I read somewhare about a "National geographic" expedition there in the arly 90's, but again, I've never been able to confirm this, and as it supposedly happened shortly after our expoedition it may be that the writer is confusing us with them (particularly as Bud was intorduced as "doctor") Again though, thanks for posting this account. There are many like it, but aside from the factual content about the expeditions themselves, I put very little store in the supposed "finds" made. Like I said, this was a desperate man possessed, and lacing a site would not be that unusual.

 

[johnnyi]

A few more finds

I dug outr a few more finds while looking for more pictures. (i've got to reduce the pictures using he scanner because it says they are "too large")

Anyway, this first one here is one of one of the plates I mentioned. I found several of these in the aroya. They are bronze, crudely drilled, and have evidence of being chiseled off larger peices. There is recorded that the spanish at this time dismantled the home of an Inca King which was made of bronze, and this bronze was transported to "somewhere" in central Bolivia to cast a bell. This particular artifact, as well as several others like it, as well as crudely formed bronze rivets, I found in aroya leading dow the slope to the monestary. I believe a mule must have gone down, and I believe also that it is likely this was part of the "house" . One plate like this one was found in the only other expedition to the site befote us,whicu was in the 1960's for half a day. At the time they did not have much to go on for a guess, as they had not found anything elser, nor had they found the large rivets which fit the holes.

The second scan is of one of the identifyable fragments I found near the smelting operation itself, which would have been the presidio of Plazuela. We had to leave behind a great deal of the bronze slag so as not to overpack the mules when we left. I believe this is a bell fragment, and may even be a failed attempt to cast a bell. I have not fdone an accurate tangent off the curve of the lip to determine exact size, but it is evident by eye alone that this was part of an object several feet in diameter. I think that fact negates the possibility that it might have been a vessel, but can't be sure.

The entire plateau was at the time we were there overgrown with thick cactus. we didn't want to damage it so we worked around it. (hopefully if anyone makes it back there they'll leave it alone as it was very beautiful, as were the wild orchids that hung from some branches nearby.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Incas's treasures

HI; why soo quiet?? The bell ? was basically a Cu alloy. POST !!!

For a bit of fascinatinng reading get -- > "The river flows East" by Leonard Clark

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[johnnyi]

Re: Incas's treasures

Hi Don Jose. I'm not being quiet, I'm just waiting to hear back from Daryl but I guess he left the scene. Regarding the bell, I've got to get on the ball and dig out the book that had the reference to the king's bronze house. I've lent so many books out over the years that I'm not sure which one it was in, or whether I've gotten it back. (most seem to disappear!)

Anyway, the second scan is a portion of what I believe might be a bell. You can see the lip on the right side. It is possible that it was part of a vessel, but as I mentioned earlier, it would have been very large. Whether or not this fragment was a bell or a vessel is incidental though, as I'm basing my theory on the plates themselves which we found, and the previous 1960 expedition found, the bronze rivets, their location in the steep aroyo, coupled with the record of the bronze Inca house, it's dismantling and shipment to central Bolivia, as well as the large amounts of melted bronze near the plazuela itself. (even the large chain's design hints of a suspended crucible, though the chains were found quite a distance away)

I'm still waiting for my son to deliver to me the photo of me holding up the chains moments after their discovery. If it doesn't come soon I'll attempt to photograph the chains again, but I prefer the original, as it shows the location, plus the original has the "cool factor" of us packing our guns in our belts while we worked!

Anyway, good to hear from you my friend, and in the next few days I'll try to provide more info.

 

[lamar]

Re: Incas's treasures

Dear johnnyi;
One needs to be cautious when trying to date artifacts in countries such as Bolivia, my friend. The methods, craftsmanship, tools and techniques have changed little throughout the centuries, therefore a riveted copper or bronze artifact may have been produced 500 years ago, or 50 years ago.

If you are searching for the fabled treasure of Sacambaya, then good luck in your endeavors, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[johnnyi]

Re: Incas's treasures

Lamar, I've already searched for it and I doubt I will go again, as things have changed in these last twenty years, for me and for Bolivia.
By the way, I do take great care in dating my artifacts and I agree with you that many styles of things have not changed. I've have dug probably tens of thousands of artifacts from the earth over the last thirty-five years and trust me, I judge such things on more than shape or size, but consider location, patina, depth, etc. etc. before coming to any conclusions. Specifically the bronze plates I scanned are of considerable age and patina, and conform to the other bronze based objects of the pre-1600's Inca period. As I mentioned also in earlier posts, these grounds of Plazuela accompanied an Inca site long since abandoned, which was confirmed by the inhabitants of Inquicibe itself. Here are a few more scans of some of the objects from the hillside which may interest you, and which can not be confused with recent manufacture. (the clean patinas came from the kinder loam of the hilldide which drained well. The more encrusted objects were found on the flat plateu itself which held water.)

Unfortunately I have to use a scanner so the detail doesn't show well. The two smaller objects are pipes; one with an effigy of a bird (which you cannot see) and the other of a human form. I have yet to know for sure if the larger object is an axe or a chisel. It is splayed somewhat from pounding which suggest the latter. The small effigy on the bottom is the the goat's head goddess you are probably familiar with, and which was the very first object I found on the site. Of all of these, it is the one which may still be found used by the locals and is worn in the hair. This highly encrusted example was in the diggings of one of the many large holes which scattered the area around the plazuela. At any rate, these were all from the remains of ruins themselves which were for many centuries unused.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Re: Incas's treasures

Very nice artifacts!!And i have enjoyed the story, keep at it

 

[Daryl Friesen]

Re: Incas's treasures

Great story lets have more?

Daryl

www.spindlequest.com/equador.html

 

[Crow]

Re: Incas's treasures

Great story.

Has anyone heard of any more recent searches?

Crow

 

[johnnyi]

Re: Incas's treasures

Great story.

Has anyone heard of any more recent searches?

Crow

Crow, it's been a while since I've been back on this thread. I haven't been in touch with contacts in Bolivia for a number of years, but as far as I know there was supposed to have been a search by National Geographic a year or two after our expedition. Bud was supposed to have contacted nat. geo. recently, and I'll ask him again what he has heard, if anything. It's doubtful much has been done there, considring how remote the area is, and considering how the acceptance of "gringos" has changed. (Aside from the "shining path", things were pretty smooth back when I was there. This was not a coca growing area, so there wasn't the trouble that went on in the lower Santa Cruz valley.

Anyway, I've learned how to take pictures of my pictures to get them small enough to post. Here are a few; the chains I dug on the hillside of Plazuela. They are hand forged, and roughly 32 inches in length each. It's my opinion they were used by the Spanish to suspend the crucible for melting bronze.

The next picture is of the river viewed from Inquicibe. We had to descend the half mile down the mountain on foot leading mules, and made the next two days along he river on foot and by mule.

The next is a picture of the Plazuela itself. five foot walls and pocmarked with holes under it, in it, around it, all from locals searching for treasure over a period of several hundred years.

That's Nick holding a bag of coca leaf and me before I had gray hair grimacing while I chewed it. We needed the coca to make it through the passes, and it was polite to offer it to the locals (and they'd offer theirs to us). As I mentioned, Nick died in a motocycle accident in Europe a few years after this picture was taken.

Crow, I've been bugging Bud to complete the edit of the videos, and when they're done I'll try to post a link. As I said before, it is doubtful I will ever go back. It is too grueling a trek at my age, and the political climate has changed too much.