Im calling out TreasureForce for their LAD claims

[Interested Party in UK]

I too think there is a lot of evidence that shows the LAD is just a tale. However, one has to wonder why Adam's and others would return to search for anything many years later if it was just a lie. Do men go out of their way to spend a lot of time and money searching for something they know does not exist? Not sane ones! That is the one thing that leads me to think there may be something to the LAD...

It's that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, perhaps...?

 

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[UncleMatt]

It's that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, perhaps...?

I don't think grown men search around in very hostile geography looking for such pots of gold. Now it is possible that Adam's became trapped by his own lies after telling them for so long, and felt he had to go search just to avoid being called a liar...

 

[Interested Party in UK]

I meant it in a playful way as the alleged pot/kettle that was supposed to have been hidden under the hearth.

But if Adam was trapped by his own lies, what about Brewer and the German?

 

[UncleMatt]

Exactly my question! Were those men simply fooled by Adam's story? They claimed to believe him 100%, but that is so often the case when people are presented with things they want to hear! There are many reports Adam's was a well known liar, but these men ignored that to believe him 100%? Adams may have been trapped into telling ever more convincing lies. When you tell one lie, you usually have to tell several more to cover up the first. And asking about the German leads right back to my search for hard evidence of a German selling $10,000 of gold in Pinos Altos in the early 1860's...

 

[UncleMatt]

Here is a question: how much would $10,000 from 1864 be worth in today's dollars? The answer reveals how unlikely it would have been for such a sum to be available to purchase gold with in Pinos Altos. And has already been pointed out, why change the gold to currency at all, since gold was legally excepted tender?

 

[Interested Party in UK]

I do not claim to be an expert on the LAD mystery, but will not deny that I am truly intrigued by it.

Brewer was a participant from the start and maybe the German fellow as well. If we take where Jack Purcell was leading with in his fine book, and all these chaps knew of one another before coming together through a twist of fate at Sacaton or Tuscon or wherever else it was, they had planned something together, be it an exploration trip or even an ambush. If they had a container full of gold which they had to bury in a hurry and most of their group was killed shortly before/after this, there was no great "placer with rich gold nuggets" and the rest, and the location was simply the spot where they had hidden loot. Adams' subsequent trips did a lot of prospecting but I believe his main aim was to recover the stash of gold rather than find the alleged site because there was no LAD - simply a spot where they had secreted some gold - he had added all the rest to cover what had really happened but the place was real enough as they had visited it and hid their ill-gotten gains. Brewer was an authenticated person and their is evidence in both the States and Mexico to prove who he was and that he became wealthy in later life. When he returned and the Tennysons gave his account, he "suddenly" became wealthy and moved into old Mexico with sizeable land holdings and was a prosperous individual. Did he find the cache site and recover it?

The description by Adams was more than likely truthful in some aspects and was probably a journey undertaken, but not to a site where a fortune was to be had in gold.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Here is a question: how much would $10,000 from 1864 be worth in today's dollars? The answer reveals how unlikely it would have been for such a sum to be available to purchase gold with in Pinos Altos. And has already been pointed out, why change the gold to currency at all, since gold was legally excepted tender?

That $10K figure is alluring and all good storytellers do not worry about creating 'real' figures, as the story would never be as interesting.

 

[Springfield]

You've raised some good points, IPUK, which help underscore the many problems with the LAD legend. After beating my head against the wall for years, I long ago entertained the notion that the LAD might be something entirely different than what people have assumed the past 150 years. What that 'something' was/is is an open question. Let me float a theory: the Lost Adams Diggings was/is a coded message intended to mask an as yet unknown event dealing with a large amount of gold within the trappings of a 'lost mine' story. Let's assume that the key details, characters and landmarks in the story are for recognition value only - red flags to attract attention, if you will.

Starting with that premise, let's discuss a few of your observations, IP. The Rancheria - also referred to as 'the pumpkin patch' in the stories. For this landmark, I would consider the site well-known by the Spanish as Santa Lucia, and since the time of the Anglos, Mangas Springs. It's a well-watered farming/pasturing area on the route west from Santa Rita del Cobre, located on a drainage about five miles upstream from the Gila River at the former site of Fort West - established 1863 - and as the crow flies, about 18 miles west of Pinos Altos. We now have established a landmark and a location for those trying to make sense of the legend - maybe two, if you accept Fort West as the 'supply fort' from the various stories.

The iron pot. A 'pot of gold' is a symbolic icon, and a focal point of the LAD legend. Find the golden canyon, find the pot of gold. Maybe it's literally a buried cast iron cooking vessel filled with dust and nuggets from the placer diggings. Or maybe it's referring to some other important gold cache. Regardless, it establishes a message - a large concentration of gold.

The Apaches guarding a golden canyon. As is well-known, the Apaches under Mangas were adamant defenders of Pinos Altos - a gold placer site originally reported by the Santa Rita-era Spanish, first worked by Anglos in the 1850's and officially 'discovered' by Snively and two others in 1860. It was rich placer diggings at first, and later became an even richer lode mining camp, with such operators as George Hearst, Citizen Kane's daddy. Maybe for the informed, this part of the LAD story establishes Pinos Altos, or the Bear Creek environs, as the proper venue. It's an 'Apache-gold' association.

Snively. A Dutchman. An extraordinary actor on the 19th century Southwest stage, from the Santa Fe Trail to Texas to New Mexico to Arizona - seemingly with friends in high places and frequently involved with gold. Discoverer of Pinos Altos. Alleged to have been seen there with a fortune in gold in 1864. A wild card.

What's the takeaway from all this? "A large quantity of gold has been cached near Pinos Altos in 1864." This is, of course, a totally speculative alternative to the dead end that seems to follow a literal interpretation of the Lost Adams Diggings story - a road that has led nowhere (as far as we know). If you desire to flesh out this approach, consider also the Confederate activities in the Southwest in 1864, why Adams cannot be identified, and gold-related legends that haunt the Pinos Altos Range. If you slip into this rabbit hole, you'll be facing conspiracy theories, but hey, what's a conspiracy? A secret held between a group of people. If those people are clever enough, they could sent hundreds or thousands of folks on a snipe hunt over two states for generations.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

You've raised some good points, IPUK, which help underscore the many problems with the LAD legend. After beating my head against the wall for years, I long ago entertained the notion that the LAD might be something entirely different than what people have assumed the past 150 years. What that 'something' was/is is an open question. Let me float a theory: the Lost Adams Diggings was/is a coded message intended to mask an as yet unknown event dealing with a large amount of gold within the trappings of a 'lost mine' story. Let's assume that the key details, characters and landmarks in the story are for recognition value only - red flags to attract attention, if you will.


Super, Springfield!

Thinking outside the box in an unorthodox manner without accepting the 'normal' version(s) of the story, it all starts showing promise. Add to you comment, that there was the possibility that Snively, Adams, Brewer and Davidson may have served together in the Civil War and been discharged together, and things start to take some sort of shape. With Purcell's research, you also have the Latter Day Saints' connection and goings-on across the border in old Mexico. Only Adams stuck to trying to raise finance and expeditions to try and recover whatever it was that had been hidden all those years before. There is simply too many divergent strands and evidence to suggest that it was all a hoax and a figment of Adams' imagination. What might not be true is certain elements and timeframes and players, but there was an incident, there was gold involved, it happened sometime in the 1860s and it was in a lonely place without many witnesses.

This might be one of those occasions when Sherlock Holmes might say "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentle men: I personally knew a surveyor that discovered the encampment of successful miners returning from ghe Gold fields of Calif, in the mal pais that was claimed to have been killed to the last man by ?? Indians, but were they ??

I can readily imagine a group of men claiming to be prospectors, who after robbing and killing a group of returning successful miners from the Calif Gold fields looking for an excuse to show where they managed to find that much Gold, finding a mythical Gold placer field as the source of their placer Gold.

So they got together and fabricated a place in then very hostile country. Naturally they are never able to return to an imiginary location..

How many of the supposed other details have been confirmed/

Ok, ok, iti s just a thought, incidentally my friend was surveying a route on the north rim and while idly swinging his theodolite Telescope around looking at the south rim, spotted the breast works thrown up by the Miners, noted it in his book. then forgot about it for a few years . One day he heard of the disappearances He then spent some months trying to relocate the breast works, but never did. This wjth accurate surveyor notes

Hmmmm

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

Gentle men: I personally knew a surveyor that discovered the encampment of successful miners returning from ghe Gold fields of Calif, in the mal pais that was claimed to have been killed to the last man by ?? Indians, but were they ??

I can readily imagine a group of men claiming to be prospectors, who after robbing and killing a group of returning successful miners from the Calif Gold fields looking for an excuse to show where they managed to find that much Gold, finding a mythical Gold placer field as the source of their placer Gold.

So they got together and fabricated a place in then very hostile country. Naturally they are never able to return to an imiginary location..

[The Adams Diggings]

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning Springfield: Did/do they actually exist as presented

Jose

 

[cactusjumper]

Hello OB

So kind of you to take the time and effort to detail the information about all the various wonderful books that I shall most definitely be looking into and purchasing. Thank you again for sharing you knowledge and thoughts.

Regarding Valverde's Treasure by Honigsbaum, I've read that and actually attempted to contact the author about some discrepencies in his book. He declined to comment when I suggested some of 'his' information was to be found in Peter Lourie's book - Sweat of the Sun, Tears of the Moon. But it is a good read as you say. I did some further research following on from it, but hit dead-ends when trying to establish various aspects of the whole Llanganatis mystery. I have also obtained a copy of Southward Ho! which, as you again point out, is a very good read.

The one overriding success of the internet, is how so many different people from different walks of like, in different parts of the globe, in different circumstances, can come together and share their thoughts, experiences and views in a constructive manner.

Thank you again for taking the time out to help a fellow reading enthusiast.

IPIU,

I have Honigsbaum's book, as well as Peter Lourie's. Both are really good reads.

Did you email Honigsbaum?

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Interested Party in UK]

IPIU,

I have Honigsbaum's book, as well as Peter Lourie's. Both are really good reads.

Did you email Honigsbaum?

Good luck,

Joe

CJ

Yes, I e-mailed Honigsbaum and attended a talk he was giving locally on the book. I would say that his intention was to write a book all along - regardless of the treasure and the story, and there was too many similarities with Lourie's book for them to meet the different characters, work out the same things, go the same places, for it to be a mere chance.

I also contacted Lourie as well. Like the LAD, the Llanganatis mystery, caught my imagination and I wanted to delve further into it. They tell of bygone times, fateful situations and enduring legacies.

Dave

 

[markmar]

Dave

I made a description of Guzman map and of the Derrotero de Valverde at http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/inca-treasures/336648-treasure-llanganatis.html . Every map has a key .

 

[Loke]

LOL, that's great!

As far as proof, I just want to see the gold. If there is no gold, but still a site, how about the remains of the burned out cabin? The chimney should be there if nothing else...

Did those guys really have the time to put up a 'real' cabin with a chimney?? I might well be wrong, but had it been me, I would have settled for a kind of lean-to ... its not like they anticipated a prolonged stay ...

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Dave

I made a description of Guzman map and of the Derrotero de Valverde at http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/inca-treasures/336648-treasure-llanganatis.html . Every map has a key .

Marius

I very much doubt there is any great treasure in the Llanganatis mountains now - assuming that there ever was. The Guzman map, 'Valverde's' derretero; they are no help to anyone at this stage, and again I am assuming that they once were.

 

[markmar]

Dave

I respect your opinion . I can't push anyone to accept my theory . But this story don't stop only at Guzman map and Derrotero de Valverde . I suggest to read the book " The Incas treasures - myth or reality ? " by Patrick Braun edited in 1978 . In one chapter is a story about general Ruminavi's son , who was adopted by Franciscans . In return to the Franciscans , when he had grow up , went into the mountains and came back with golden items which was smelted under the Franciscans church . The book has and other stories from that region .

Have a nice day

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

IPIUK: You posted --> I very much doubt there is any great treasure in the Llanganatis mountains now
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yer right, I hear that Kanacker, crow, and the other member of the unholy trio recovered that generations ago. How else are they able to run around Polynesia with a boatload of young beauties

Ok, Ok, so I am jealous.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Dave

I respect your opinion . I can't push anyone to accept my theory . But this story don't stop only at Guzman map and Derrotero de Valverde . I suggest to read the book " The Incas treasures - myth or reality ? " by Patrick Braun edited in 1978 . In one chapter is a story about general Ruminavi's son , who was adopted by Franciscans . In return to the Franciscans , when he had grow up , went into the mountains and came back with golden items which was smelted under the Franciscans church . The book has and other stories from that region .

Marius

Thank you for accepting the difference of views with magnanimity.

Please note that in no way am I suggesting that considerable amounts of treasure were not hidden from the absolutely rapacious conquistadores; just that it is not likely to be in the Llanganatis mountains. When I looked into some accounts of that turbulent time in the history of the Americas, it was suggested that factions of Atahualpa's maternal Shyris were responsible for retrieving his body from Cajamarca and travelled north to present day Ecuador. Some indicators suggest they travelled passed the mountains of the Llanganat and went northwards in the region of present-day Otavalo where they strong links. The Sapa Inca was buried with full honours and his accumulated wealth - no doubt. I have come across many instances where fabulous hoards were discovered many years after the conquest that had been lost, forgotten, concealed or simply left. I cam across a story about how a native girl took a poor Spaniard to a cave with the blessing of her people that was very similar to the Valverde story, differed in many respects as well. An Englishman wrote a super book about his travels across South America in the 1800s. He told of an incident where he met the widow of a native resistance leader who fought in the war of independence. The leader needed to badly raise funds for supplies and weapons. A group of elders were consulted, and after much debate took him blindfolded one night along a trail close to the Huatenay river near Cuzco to secret location to retrieve as much gold as he needed. Why did the Englishman believe the widow?
She showed him some still pristine pieces which the leader had given his wife to use in the event of his death. The English author corroborated the story with several sources.

Even Manco Inca gave the Spanish treasures whilst installed as a puppet leader, and his half-sister, a daughter of the mighty Huayna Capac was used abysmally be the conquerers to retrieve yet more concealed treasure, and was then physically abused. There was another story about a commoner who found a huge cache of gold (can't remember the exact location without going through reams of old papers and files) somewhere in Peru during the 18th century, that helped him to buy a grand title and access to the privileged classes.

The story about the Franciscans could be the one about Catuna the stonemason who had access to a hidden treasure, as he alleged his father was present at the battle of Quito against Benalcazar's forces.

Much yet to be undiscovered. Who can say when and by whom.

Good Luck