If John Frank Dalton was Jesse James, a contrarian view on his caches!

[Ocean7]

This thread is designed to get open dialog, and get a contrarian viewpoint, as opposed
to believing everything that has been claimed on this subject. What is the real deal
with all these supposed JJ's caches buried around the country waiting for someone to find?
And I ask you to first consider the 'ramifications' of JJ actually being John Frank Dalton,
and then go from there.

As a TH'er, you have to use logic when looking at possible/probable caches that someone
supposely buried around the country. Are they still there or long gone?

John Frank Dalton lived (March 8, 1848 – August 15, 1951) - note when he died.
Before he died, he claimed to be Jesse James. He seems to have had all the scars
that JJ would of had on his body. "These body features included: seven bullet wounds,
a rope burn around his neck, a collapsed lung, a damaged fingertip, and severely burned feet."
Source:Wikipedia

There are plenty of threads on this Forum about this being a fact.
Now if he was JJ, what are the odds that any of his caches still exist in the ground
where they were hidden? I would submit the odds are ZERO unless he forgot where he
hid a couple or could not find them. This is just plain ordinary common sense. Would
you leave gold and silver buried that you needed? I don't think so. It all comes down
to the reality of survival. Remember this guy lived to 102 years old!

So if you believe good evidence exists that JJ changed his name to John Frank Dalton,
and lived to be 102 years old - consider how much money he and his cronies could
spend in all those years. Consider how much he would need to live comfortably.

As for the KGC, I'm sure that any of them that knew of JJ caches had long since
dug them up and spent them too - for the same reasons. That just the way life is.
You can believe in some great tale but that doesn't make them true. Find me the
person who can sit on gold/silver and not spend it when the need to survive knocks.
I'm sorry but these things seem to be someone's fancy, and it makes for a very good story.
But at the end of day, it just doesn't make a lick of sense to me at all.
And that is my opinion, and I've read some of the books, and I'll leave it at that.

If you all decide there are just lots of trove out there buried still by these JJ bandits -
hey knock yourself out finding them and certainly by all means (good luck). And if you already
have dug up caches you attributed to JJ - prove that JJ and his gang buried them.
Where is the provenance? Symbols can be added to trees and stones at anytime,
and by anyone. Stones carvings cannot be carbon dated. Even cravings in trees cannot be accurately
dated.

Personally, I think you are more likely to find Civil War caches buried due to that war.
And I haven't heard anyone talking about the all the caches LBJ supposedly buried across
Texas? What happened to them? But I digress from my original topic.

If this post turns into a bonafide donnybrook, then I hope Jeff deletes it. That will
just prove that people are not entitled to their opinions, and cannot take a contrarian
viewpoint to a topic that obviously has some very large holes in it - when you throw in
this whole KGC conspiracy. So is there anyone else that has a similar take on this subject?

 

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[Argentium]

Ocean7 Has this been a long running topic here for a while ? Reading your post I get the sense I'm missing a lot of back story .

 

[Ocean7]

Ocean7 Has this been a long running topic here for a while ? Reading your post I get the sense I'm missing a lot of back story .

well yes, I think so, for instance this post has 197 responses and 6,140 views. I lean towards agreeing that these two guys were one and the same. There are other posts prior to this one.
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/kgc/404627-more-proof-j-frank-dalton-jesse-woodson-james.html

 

[MUDSLINGER]

he was a bandit with gang members that is the basic starting point i suppose. i am not well versed enough with his life to engage in any factual debate, but in general i would think one would agree he was prolific and skilled in his holdups to avoid capture. I would want to know his standard operating procedure after his robberies. Did he and his gang ride 10, 20, miles away and then divide the loot or did they take it back to a hideout and split it? I think diaries from him or any of his gang members might reveal some of their motis operendi. It is alleged he stashed caches around the country; plausible most people hide money and i guess it would make sense to mark the location for future recovery. If he did this would he do it in front of his fellow gang members? Now was he a member of a shadowy group called KGC maybe a harder question to answer. many facts maybe forever lost to history but to a dedicated THer we may yet get a glimpse of the truth to this colorful american story. I will keep an open mind and read what others have to say.

 

[lastleg]

One theory is because of their hebrew heritage the James's were persecuted and turned to crime to
obtain daily bread. This puts a pinch on the common myth that all outlaws carried shovels on their
horses. Frank and Jesse were taught not to rob on the Sabbath which crimped their style robbing
banks on the best day of the week. So what they did was dig five holes every day except Saturday
and actually rob banks to fill the holes Monday thru Friday.

The five holes were dug while they were pretending to dig post holes. The shovels were taken back
home before the robberies took place and after the robberies they rode fast horses to one of the
post holes, inserting the gold and putting a pre-cut post on top, then raking the dirt over the hole.

This little known clue can keep THers from wasting time looking in caves or under boulders. You
always know its Jesse James loot if its wrapped in a shamuka, their mode of operation. Their
mother hand knitted the shamukas for the boys to use, she told them it would keep the gold
safe.

As for Dalton he was a total con-man and never even met the boys, although he did know a
guy who said he saw them in Bermuda. This guy said Jesse and Frank were working as tour
guides.

That about wraps it up.

 

[Ocean7]

Mudslinger - thanks for your input.

lastleg - so you don't believe Dalton was Jesse. Ok I've seen the cable shows on this guy and read various pieces about him. What troubles me is the living to 102. I mean birth certificates going back that far were probably easy to counterfeit or alter. So I have a hard time believing the 102 age. Then there is the DNA question and mystery. According to wikipedia:
"The exhumation of J. Frank Dalton's remains at Granbury Cemetery was conducted on May 30, 2000,[SUP][30][/SUP] but unfortunately the wrong remains - the remains of William Henry Holland (1882-1927) - were exhumed. Consequently, most researchers believe that J. Frank Dalton's remains have yet to be exhumed and DNA-tested, but rumors have been circulating in the treasure-hunting and conspiracy communities that Dalton's remains were secretly exhumed - shortly after the failed public exhumation - and that DNA-testing of the remains has been completed. If this is indeed the case, the test results of Dalton's DNA analysis have never been revealed to the public." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Frank_Dalton

DNA would prove this once and for all. Either yes or no. Now the conspiracy theory folks will all jump on the bandwagon and say, 'hell yeah it's JJ and that's why.' But what does anyone have to hide after all these years other than the truth? It would seem to me then that if DNA was done and withheld, then the answer came back - NO. But that's just conjecture and that's how these tales grow into some totally fantastic story that places JJ in the middle of some secret society that is still in existence today. I think Dan Brown did the same thing with all the connections he made in The Da Vinci Code etc. I saw a well known science historian James Burke on a show called 'Connections' that just blew many of these connections apart with historic facts. Still we're left to believe what we want to believe. We are TH'ers after all! *L*

 

[lastleg]

Ocean 7

Thers are either rational or irrational, non-conspiratists or willing to believe one or more of the
abundant delusional conspiratory myths. Historians say Bob Ford shot Jesse's lights out. The
conspiratists say no he arranged for a "stand-in" to take the fall. For some reason they find
reality displeasing. Ford played himself on stage shooting Jesse over and over, mostly to jeers.


Ford was the most hated man in America in most quarters. He escaped to Creede CO but his
past found him out. He is buried there to this day. If Ford did not really shoot Jesse why would
he expose himself to universal ridicule and hatred?

 

[Ocean7]

lastleg
I fully agree with you! It seems they want to make JJ into some kind of a super genius that had all kinds of plans
in operation, outsmarted the Fed. marshals, the North, the FBI, and God knows what else. And it seems that
he's been made into some kind of superhero like Godzilla is to the Japanese. So much has been attributed to
JJ by some groups who claim to be secret - that it just boggles the mind. Obviously, I do not believe any of
the so called connections made to a group who wanted the Confederacy to win and claims that it did! gosh
we must have been the victims of mass hypnosis all these years. I just don't get that at all unless it was all
designed to sell books about alleged treasure waiting for us out there? It is an effective sales plan.

 

[Ocean7]

oh I missed this piece of info: Jesse James - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Rumors of Jesse James's survival proliferated almost as soon as the newspapers announced his death. Some said that Robert Ford killed someone other than James, in an elaborate plot to allow him to escape justice. These tales have received little credence, then or later. None of James's biographers accepted them as plausible. The body buried in Kearney, Missouri, as Jesse James's was exhumed in 1995 and subjected to mitochondrial DNA typing. The report, prepared by Anne C. Stone, Ph.D., James E. Starrs, L.L.M., and Mark Stoneking, Ph.D., stated the mtDNA recovered from the remains was consistent with the mtDNA of one of James's relatives in the female line."

 

[Ocean7]

why was this guy a hero? He was a murderer and killed innocent people.
"Jesse James killed 62 people. James' last victim was William Westfall, a train conductor who was killed July 15, 1881 just outside of Winston, Missouri. James died on April 3, 1882."
References: Legends of America: Timeline of the James Gang

 

[Ocean7]

here's another gem from easy research sitting out there in cyberspace.
In a website based on "Jesse James’ Hidden Treasure – Bogus history & fantasy"
it says:
"The fake history starts with the opening lines, which claim Jesse stole $5 million. Detailed analysis by reputable historians account a total under $250,000."

Source:
"the official blog for the family of Frank & Jesse James & their official web site Stray Leaves."
http://http://ericjames.org/wordpre...gus-history-fantasy-from-the-history-channel/

 

[Ocean7]

how false stories snowball into fantastic amounts that involve 'supposed' JJ caches.
"The Lost Loot of Gads Hill
In early September 1948, almost 75 years after the infamous Jesse James train raid at Gads Hill, Missouri, a man cutting timber near the robbery site stumbled onto a small cavelike opening in the side of a hill. He thought little of it at the time and after finishing his work returned home. A couple of weeks later, he mentioned the incident to a neighbor, who recalled a local legend. For decades, his friend said, it had been told that during their retreat from Gads Hill in 1874, Jesse and his gang had hidden all or part of the train loot somewhere in the Ozark hills of Wayne County. Perhaps this cave was the place.

Excited about the prospect of instant wealth, the woodcutter headed back to the woods. This time he brought along a flashlight instead of an ax. After crawling a few yards into the cave, he came upon a sizable room. There he discovered what was later reported to have been a large bundle of paper money, a ‘hatful’ of old coins and a muzzleloading rifle. When he returned home and told the neighbor of his unusual find, rumor mills began to grind. The story spread, and big city news reporters, eager to get the story of Jesse James’ lost treasure, soon flocked to the scene.


A so-called reliable source claimed that the coins and currency taken from the cave amounted to more than $100,000 and that he had personally seen $10,000 in old gold coins in the woodcutter’s possession. A newspaper told of an armored vehicle parked in front of the man’s house, and adding even more interest to the unfolding drama was the reported arrival of two agents from the U.S. Treasury Department who had come to investigate the matter. All this created quite a stir, and the sleepy little village of Gads Hill, which had enjoyed so many years of peace and tranquility since the train robbery, found itself once again in the national spotlight.


The hubbub went on for several days; then, as quickly as the story had broken, it began to unravel. The woodcutter, it turned out, had not discovered Jesse James’ lost treasure after all, but only a crumbling book, a rusty old rifle with a rotten, worm-eaten stock and some 2-cent pieces (the oldest dated 1886, four years after Jesse’s death). He was surprised himself to learn he had found $100,000. ‘Only thing I ever told about,’ he said, ‘was finding the gun and a few coins.’ The poor fellow was apparently not to blame for the wild exaggeration. It was, as one newspaper put it, ‘merely the workings of normal backyard gossip.’


And so the story, like so many other debunked myths surrounding Jesse James, was laid to rest. On October 8, 1948, the St. Louis Globe-Democrat printed a final article that poked fun at the whole affair. Its headline appropriately read: ‘Jesse Fizzles Again.’"

---

This article was written by Ronald H. Beights and originally appeared in the June 2005 issue of Wild West.
Source:

Jesse James | Facts Summary Information

 

[Ocean7]

Fact is Jesse James wrote his own press! I'm sure this blood thirsty killer was extremely honest too!

"James, Stiles shows, was a publicist for himself. He forged a close working relationship with a newspaper editor who penned laudatory accounts of his exploits, and wrote numerous letters to the press. On one occasion he even distributed what Stiles calls “a prepared press release” (233) to startled train passengers during a robbery that not only exaggerated his height but offered a detailed apologia for his actions."

"[FONT=Times, Times New Roman]Overall, this is the biography of a violent criminal whose image was promoted and actions extenuated by those who saw him as a useful weapon against black rights and Republican rule. To his credit, Stiles does not shy from employing stark language rarely encountered in American historical writing. During the Civil War, he writes, James was a member of a “death squad” (96) that targeted Unionist civilians and slaves. [FONT=Times, Times New Roman]If he were alive today, Stiles adds, James would be called a 'terrorist.' [/FONT]"[/FONT]

source:Jesse James: Last Rebel of the Civil War Eric Foner: American Historian

 

[Ocean7]

more myth busting!
"Oddly, for a supposedly pro-Confederate gang still clinging to the Southern cause, many of their robberies were of small local banks containing local money rather than that of the hated carpetbaggers. This being a time before bank robberies were insured by the Federal Government, robbing local banks was only likely to hurt local people and businesses which contradicts the myth of Jesse’s band being entirely politically motivated. Despite the Robin Hood myth so ably peddled by the gang’s apologists and supporters, especially journalist (and unofficial public relations wizard for the gang) John Newman Edwards, very little stolen money found its way from the banks of the rich into the pockets of the poor. Jesse might have believed that he was acting to represent the downtrodden Missourians and the defeated Confederacy (so might Edwards for that matter) but I’ve no doubt that Jesse fully understood the value of providing some kind of justification for his many crimes and that Edwards probably recognized the value of a widely read, long-running syndicated saga when he saw one."
source:
Jesse James: The Baddest Outlaw of Them All Crime Magazine

 

[DFX DAVE in M.D.]

I would think James died when it was reported that he died, otherwise he would have kept robbing banks, because that is what he did.

 

[Ocean7]

I would think James died when it was reported that he died, otherwise he would have kept robbing banks, because that is what he did.

yeah based on the DNA evidence, I'd say ole Jesse did not live anywhere near 102 years old! But fantasy sells books and metal detectors.

 

[BosnMate]

One theory is because of their hebrew heritage the James's were persecuted and turned to crime to
obtain daily bread. This puts a pinch on the common myth that all outlaws carried shovels on their
horses. Frank and Jesse were taught not to rob on the Sabbath which crimped their style robbing
banks on the best day of the week. So what they did was dig five holes every day except Saturday
and actually rob banks to fill the holes Monday thru Friday.

The five holes were dug while they were pretending to dig post holes. The shovels were taken back
home before the robberies took place and after the robberies they rode fast horses to one of the
post holes, inserting the gold and putting a pre-cut post on top, then raking the dirt over the hole.

This little known clue can keep THers from wasting time looking in caves or under boulders. You
always know its Jesse James loot if its wrapped in a shamuka, their mode of operation. Their
mother hand knitted the shamukas for the boys to use, she told them it would keep the gold
safe.

As for Dalton he was a total con-man and never even met the boys, although he did know a
guy who said he saw them in Bermuda. This guy said Jesse and Frank were working as tour
guides.

That about wraps it up.

I love it, best one yet.

 

[BosnMate]

[h=1]I remember as a kid reading a book written by Emmett Dalton, (my uncle knew Emmette in his later years when living in Calif.) named "When the Dalton's Rode," and the book has not been available until now, when I checked on Amazon, they have it in paperback. I'm going to buy a copy and read it again, and I vaguely remember reading that the gang hid some loot in a creek bed, (he named the place) and later when he went back he couldn't find it. Here's what I found on Amazon. I think Emmett died in the 1920's, anyhow he survived Coffeeville, and spent 14 years in prison. Here's the info I found on Amazon.

When the Daltons Rode Paperback – October 31, 2011[/h]
by Emmett Dalton (Author), Kith Presland (Foreword)

4 customer reviews

---

See all 6 formats and editions

• Hardcover
  from $74.95 1 Used from $74.95 3 Collectible from $95.95
• Paperback
  $17.96 8 Used from $12.00 19 New from $13.93

Autobiography of an Old West outlaw. Known for his scandalous career as a train and bank robber, Emmett Dalton remains a significant figure in American Old West history. This candid autobiography details his years with the Dalton gang, his courtship of Julia Johnson, and the fourteen years he served in prison. Peppered with anecdotes, this book provides a peek into the mind of an outlaw.

 

[Ocean7]

"Frank James, at the age of 72, died from natural causes at the James Farm on February 18, 1915."

Jesse died of April 3, 1882 but Frank had lots of time to recover caches. About 33 years!

source: Jesse James - Folklore Hero or Cold Blooded Killer? - Page 6

 

[Osiyo]

There is more to that story than has been said , at Coffeyville. Must be some sort of rewrite, Kith Presland is not that old and younger than me. She also is a Dalton buff....There is a book by him before 2011...

[h=1]I remember as a kid reading a book written by Emmett Dalton, (my uncle knew Emmette in his later years when living in Calif.) named "When the Dalton's Rode," and the book has not been available until now, when I checked on Amazon, they have it in paperback. I'm going to buy a copy and read it again, and I vaguely remember reading that the gang hid some loot in a creek bed, (he named the place) and later when he went back he couldn't find it. Here's what I found on Amazon. I think Emmett died in the 1920's, anyhow he survived Coffeeville, and spent 14 years in prison. Here's the info I found on Amazon.

When the Daltons Rode Paperback – October 31, 2011[/h]
by Emmett Dalton (Author), Kith Presland (Foreword)

4 customer reviews

---

See all 6 formats and editions

• Hardcover
  from $74.95 1 Used from $74.95 3 Collectible from $95.95
• Paperback
  $17.96 8 Used from $12.00 19 New from $13.93

Autobiography of an Old West outlaw. Known for his scandalous career as a train and bank robber, Emmett Dalton remains a significant figure in American Old West history. This candid autobiography details his years with the Dalton gang, his courtship of Julia Johnson, and the fourteen years he served in prison. Peppered with anecdotes, this book provides a peek into the mind of an outlaw.