Identical fire nuggets...two silver turtles

[Crispin]

Dug my second silver turtle at antique site today. I'm not going to clean it up at all. It was a whisper on my sand shark that got louder as I dug. Somewhere around the 18 to 24 inch range. I found the lighter color turtle in the same area three years ago...cleaned that one up. Current theory is that they were Spanish made and traded to Native Americans. Any ideas? I know these are not the best pics. I'm going to have wife use hi-res camera later today/tonight.

 

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[releventchair]

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[mcl]

The key features about this piece that help distinguish it from other turtle figurines are:

1) Bottom is concave (can't be a trinket box or a spitoon)
2) Unique casting feature created at the joints between the body and head, and the body and tail on the underside (distinct nub)
3) Thin and long neck (many have a fat head with no neck at all)
4) The back legs extend backward and the front legs extend backward (many have all four legs backward or forward)
5) The two rows of the shell (the pattern for the bottom row is completely different than the top)

I say this after having browsed through hundreds of them so far. I'd put money on it being jewelry such as earrings or bracelet charms.

 

[Crispin]

I found a couple of pics...One is a coin but the design resembles my turtle. The other is a silver trading turtle from the fur trade. Not mine but size and shape is more in the ballpark.

 

[Crispin]

The key features about this piece that help distinguish it from other turtle figurines are:

1) Bottom is concave (can't be a trinket box or a spitoon)
2) Unique casting feature created at the joints between the body and head, and the body and tail on the underside (distinct nub)
3) Thin and long neck (many have a fat head with no neck at all)
4) The back legs extend backward and the front legs extend backward (many have all four legs backward or forward)
5) The two rows of the shell (the pattern for the bottom row is completely different than the top)

I say this after having browsed through hundreds of them so far. I'd put money on it being jewelry such as earrings or bracelet charms.

I appreciate all your effort. The Null hypothesis here is unidentifiable silver turtles.
1. If it is jewelry then it is not modern. They have been in the water for a long time and there are no modern pics that come close the design that I have found.
2. Number five is the style of turtle coins that I have been seeing.
3. I found these turtles in over a foot and a half of hard pack three years apart. They were not near each other on the beach.

Again, I appreciate all your effort. I'm gonna look at coins to find a similar pattern next but I need to sleep for now...

 

[mcl]

I found a couple of pics...One is a coin but the design resembles my turtle. The other is a silver trading turtle from the fur trade. Not mine but size and shape is more in the ballpark.

View attachment 1202124View attachment 1202125View attachment 1202129

Your first turtle is a Greek coin from 400 BC, not the Spanish in the new world. Here's a picture of both the obverse and reverse (it's not what you have).



Your second turtle is from 2015 and is being sold for $1.50 by a website that sells homemade religious memorabilia. It is a reproduction of how they imagine trade tokens, and is not make of silver. They also sell a beaver one if you want it.

Let me know if you find any more examples.

 

[Crispin]

Okay, this is it for the night, lol... Here are two ancient coins with similar designs. The design of my turtle is very old. If it is Spanish that was traded to Native Americans.
1. These coins would have been a good guide on how to make the mold.
2. We know that turtles hold a scared place in Native American culture...they would have had high trade value to Native Americans.

 

[Crispin]

Your first turtle is a Greek coin from 400 BC, not the Spanish in the new world. Here's a picture of both the obverse and reverse (it's not what you have).

View attachment 1202131

Your second turtle is from 2015 and is being sold for $1.50 by a website that sells homemade religious memorabilia. It is a reproduction of how they imagine trade tokens, and is not make of silver. They also sell a beaver one if you want it.

Let me know if you find any more examples.

Yes. These coins are not what I have. But were they inspiration for the design? Not as if that proves anything.

 

[releventchair]

I found a couple of pics...One is a coin but the design resembles my turtle. The other is a silver trading turtle from the fur trade. Not mine but size and shape is more in the ballpark.

View attachment 1202124View attachment 1202125View attachment 1202129

I owned a replica like the center pic..
I don't find concave turtles to match yours.
Hudson bay had a concave one but is plenty different enough to not confuse.
Hudson bay had competition though...
Multiple nations brought goodies and during a period of French isolation here ,some tried their hand at casting their own trade jewelry out of necessity. Even from lead due to shortages of anything else.
Heck, the Dutch at one time traded for silver stuff, among other items, with the Japanese. They plied wares on this continent a while before getting ousted and likely traded with multiple nations..
Who Spanish in Florida traded with for trade items for natives could be about anyone...
More finds there may add context enough in time to get a better idea of a time in history.