I know what it is !! But which country painted and wore it??

[sasnz]

Hi Everone

I purchased this doughboy a couple of years back at auction because i liked the look of it. I know a reasonable amount about ww2 but ww1 is a little blank to me. I know this is a ww1 helmet but am curious as to which country would have worn it. I am presuming that it may be french with the colours red, white, and blue around the rim but am guessing on this. Can anyone here tell me what the stars around the helmet might signify?

Regards Sasnz

 

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[crazyjarhead]

Nice helmet

 

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[trikikiwi]

Very nice helmet, sas
Definitely a nice little investment too.

I believe the wheel/s on the rear were for assisting steering
"For slight turns, the driver could use the steering tail: an enormous contraption dragged behind the tank consisting of two large wheels, each of which could be blocked by pulling a steel cable causing the whole vehicle to slide in the same direction."
and
"To aid steering, a pair of large wheels were added behind the tank. These were not as effective as hoped and were subsequently dropped."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_I_(tank)

Mike

 

[Montana Jim]

Mike just beat me to it! I'll post anyways...



This British MK -1 (Male) tank is fitted with the wire "grenade shield" and steering tail, both features discarded in the next models.

 

[sasnz]

Very nice helmet, sas
Definitely a nice little investment too.

I believe the wheel/s on the rear were for assisting steering
"For slight turns, the driver could use the steering tail: an enormous contraption dragged behind the tank consisting of two large wheels, each of which could be blocked by pulling a steel cable causing the whole vehicle to slide in the same direction."
and
"To aid steering, a pair of large wheels were added behind the tank. These were not as effective as hoped and were subsequently dropped."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_I_(tank)

Mike

Thanks Mike, thought it may have been an anti mine roller but then i noticed it at the rear of the tank. didnt quite match up. thanks for the info

Cheers Sasnz

 

[sasnz]

Mike just beat me to it! I'll post anyways...



This British MK -1 (Male) tank is fitted with the wire "grenade shield" and steering tail, both features discarded in the next models.

Thanks Jim, so would this make the tank a mark 1??

 

[NGE]

My first thought about the wheels on the back were to stop the tank from doing a back-flip......NGE

 

[tinpan]

between the battle of Le Hamel 4 july 1918 till the battle of the Hindenburg Line later that year.Combined forces of Australia, some Americans and New Zealanders used large numbers of tanks and spotter aircraft.They did what no other army including the German , French,British in 4 years smash threw the trench line defences and kept advancing.battle feild -commander was Lt General John Monash.I believe that your helmet was a part of this time.

tinpan no single army an allied of many

 

[Harry_Morant]

You're in New Zealand right? - NZ colours are also Red White & Blue, as is the US, England and Australia. It would have most likely been painted after peace was declared or on the long way home on a ship. Have a close look for any other markings stamped into the rim of the helmet or on the liner. This may give some more research material.

If you found it in NZ then theres a good chance it is a helmet worn by a Kiwi soldier.

A Kiwi soldier would not have as much a chance of scoring a spare helmet off the Americans (if he didn't decorate his own) as the US only declared war on Germany (and not on all the Central powers) in April 1917 and didn't actively join big scale action on the Western front until early 1918. This is illustrated by the low comparative battle death casualty figures of less than 55000. This compared to over 600,000 UK deaths, 1,451,000 Russians, 433,000 Italians (our Allies in WWI) and 1,186,000 Frenchmen killed in combat. Even Australia and New Zealand had a combined casualty figure of over 68000 killed which is huge when you consider our population of our countries at the time was only 6 million combined (Australia 5 million and NZ 1 million). The US at the time had a population of around 90 million. I know, I know I've wandered off topic a bit

 

[taz42o]

Hi sasnz, yes you are right it is not a mark 8. The mark 1 and mark 4 looked like one on your helmet,as Jim said the rear steering wheels where dropped after the mark 1 because they were not very effective. So I now think it is mark 1. I found a site on ww1 battle fields , the pic is a marker on grave of man who served in tank corps. It is in a British cemetery. I do not know if it is a American or British soldier or if this is American or British insignia but is a tank corps. insignia, from that period. I will try to send link. The first u.s. tank battalion was formed in France. both those countries as well as many others have red white and blue flag but think only New Zealand , U.S.A., Liberia, Cuba and Panama have also five pointed stars,is that right?. But when I see red, white and blue(stars and bars) I think u.s.a. As someone mentioned ,I think they would use any equipment they could get, including tanks and helmets no matter who made them. Hopefully tank corps. insignia will be of some help. Very nice helmet.

http://www.ww1battlefields.co.uk/others/cambrai.html

 

[sasnz]

between the battle of Le Hamel 4 july 1918 till the battle of the Hindenburg Line later that year.Combined forces of Australia, some Americans and New Zealanders used large numbers of tanks and spotter aircraft.They did what no other army including the German , French,British in 4 years smash threw the trench line defences and kept advancing.battle feild -commander was Lt General John Monash.I believe that your helmet was a part of this time.

tinpan no single army an allied of many

Very possible tinpan but would they have used the mk1 tank that late in the war??

 

[sasnz]

You're in New Zealand right? - NZ colours are also Red White & Blue, as is the US, England and Australia. It would have most likely been painted after peace was declared or on the long way home on a ship. Have a close look for any other markings stamped into the rim of the helmet or on the liner. This may give some more research material.

If you found it in NZ then theres a good chance it is a helmet worn by a Kiwi soldier.

A Kiwi soldier would not have as much a chance of scoring a spare helmet off the Americans (if he didn't decorate his own) as the US only declared war on Germany (and not on all the Central powers) in April 1917 and didn't actively join big scale action on the Western front until early 1918. This is illustrated by the low comparative battle death casualty figures of less than 55000. This compared to over 600,000 UK deaths, 1,451,000 Russians, 433,000 Italians (our Allies in WWI) and 1,186,000 Frenchmen killed in combat. Even Australia and New Zealand had a combined casualty figure of over 68000 killed which is huge when you consider our population of our countries at the time was only 6 million combined (Australia 5 million and NZ 1 million). The US at the time had a population of around 90 million. I know, I know I've wandered off topic a bit

Hey Harry

I guess that would be a strong possibilty. I guess we do have the blue red and white but i have never seen anything relating to new zealand with thos colours in a bar type arrangement. That is why i thought it may have been french. Usa i could relate to also. Of course not ruling this out. The other question would pose is that the NZ flag has only 4 stars and their is 8 on the helmet. very good food for thought tho
Cheers Sasnz

 

[Harry_Morant]

The eight stars may just be decoration or it may signify eight kills, eight battles, 8th Battalion, 8th Brigade, who knows. I'd be cautious in trying to determine the origin by just the artwork - some have suggested that it must have come from a tank unit just because it has a picture of one. You have to remember the tank was a shiney new modern invention of the age, . Its a bit like a kid in the sixties drawing a rocket ship - it doesn't automatically make him an astronaut.

Look for any markings on the inside of the helmet, on the liner or the rim - it would assist greatly.

The British made helmets had a number of makers marks such as:

BS was manufactured by W. Beardmore & Co Ltd of Glasgow
HS was Hadfield of Sheffield
V was Vickers of Sheffield

Most US Helmets were marked with a Z

Does it still have the liner? - is there a rubber doughnut at the top as these were introduced late war for additional padding

Is the helmet magnetic or non-magnetic? - if it is magnetic then its early war and less likely to be a US helmet as they didn't introduce non-magnetic manganese steel until late1915, early 16. It could all get very confusing however at the US initially bought 400 000 helmets from the British before manufacturing their own. Unless you know the actual providence of the helmet I'm afraid everything else is conjecture, well intentioned but not likely to give an answer that you could swear by.

 

[sasnz]

The eight stars may just be decoration or it may signify eight kills, eight battles, 8th Battalion, 8th Brigade, who knows. I'd be cautious in trying to determine the origin by just the artwork - some have suggested that it must have come from a tank unit just because it has a picture of one. You have to remember the tank was a shiney new modern invention of the age, . Its a bit like a kid in the sixties drawing a rocket ship - it doesn't automatically make him an astronaut.

Look for any markings on the inside of the helmet, on the liner or the rim - it would assist greatly.

The British made helmets had a number of makers marks such as:

BS was manufactured by W. Beardmore & Co Ltd of Glasgow
HS was Hadfield of Sheffield
V was Vickers of Sheffield

Most US Helmets were marked with a Z

Does it still have the liner? - is there a rubber doughnut at the top as these were introduced late war for additional padding

Is the helmet magnetic or non-magnetic? - if it is magnetic then its early war and less likely to be a US helmet as they didn't introduce non-magnetic manganese steel until late1915, early 16. It could all get very confusing however at the US initially bought 400 000 helmets from the British before manufacturing their own. Unless you know the actual providence of the helmet I'm afraid everything else is conjecture, well intentioned but not likely to give an answer that you could swear by.

Hello Harry.

Thanks for the info. I am aware that i am not going to get a precise identification as it has no name or flag etc. Just trying to narrow down the probability! Altho it has been mentioned that it could be a tanks corps helmet it never really entered my head as such. thought the possibility was too way off. I was trying to use the tank as a way of dating the helmet as if it was later in the war (eg ww2 ) you wouldnt paint a panzer 2 if you were used to seeing tigers would you!!! From what i can gather it is a mark 1 tank, not sure wether they used these the whole war or just the earlier parts.

The info about being magnetic is great, never thought of that. i have tested the helmet and it is none metelic. The only marking on the helmet is on the under rim and it reads ZC204. Would this make it an American Helmet?? The helmet still has the lining but their is absolutely no further markings outside the size that the helmet has, however i can tell you that it does not have a rubber doughnut at the top inside.

 

[Harry_Morant]

Yes I would now say that it is an American manufactured helmet due to the Z marking. The British first used tanks in combat in September 1916.

 

[watercolor]

Holy smoke!! That's incredible!. . . based on the outside paint colors, I'd have to say American.

If there's a liner & strap still remaining on the inside, that would also help in a positive I.D.

Great find
watercolor

 

[taz42o]

I am not an expert only stating my opinion hoping it will lead to more information. Of all the painted helmets I have looked at online most have a emblem of a division ,company,unit. I have not seen any with pics of things they just saw or wanted to use and since that tank was used as a tank corps. insignia I thought it was something to look into . If that is a tank corps. insignia on helmet it is possible the person who owned or painted it never saw a mark 1 in use. Just trying to look at leads other than who made the helmet or tank. Who made it does not necessarily tell who used it,it narrows it down , insignia would narrow it farther. If thats what it is.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

german tanks in WWI were often british tanks captured and rearmed.

the camo job on the tank looks german.

trench art being what it is, certain liberties with color, content occur.

check the leather liner in that helmet. who made the leather? there will be a stamp.

paint means zero...check the liner!!!!!!!!!

 

[taz42o]

sasnz has already posted the only markings he found on it. (zc204) Paint means more than zero ,if it is authentic it can tell you a man in a certain division used it and what battles it may have been used in , if the clues are there. It can also add to the value especially one with such a nice paint job. I do not claim tank is an insignia just wonder if it could be . I do not know if helmets in link are authentic or if they really sell for the price they are asking but shows some division emblems.



http://www.snyderstreasures.com/pages/wwihelmets.htm

 

[sasnz]

Thanks taz42o, I have appreciated your comments through this thread. The reason that i dont personally think that this is an insignia is the fact it has a landscape around it which would interprete more of a landscape design. I think a helmet with insignia would be worth a little more to a collector than one with out as it would give a little more history to the helmet. On saying that i have seen a few that have gone for stupid money on camoflage and painted designs. I guess it is up to what someone is prepared to pay for it and the attractiveness of the piece to the individual eyes. My guess now is that this is an American helmet from around the early part of the americans coming into the war, but again this is just speculation. Thanks to all who have enjoyed the thread and posted comments.

Cheers Sasnz.

 

[sasnz]

Well folks their is gold in them their helmets. I just sold this on Ebay for US$728, only about $3 - $400 more than i thought it would go for.

Sasnz