How to spot Old Spanish Mines

[gold tramp]

STOP IT!

Spanish Mines do not show tailings piles! Since the Spanish couldn't work these mines year round, they had to make them easy to hide until the next mining season. The Spanish went to great lengths to either scatter their tailings over many miles (and far away from their mines), or dump them in some deep hidden crevasse where they would not be seen. They had small hidden openings and no telltale tailings piles.

If Jesus came to you and told you about it (seems kind of odd for Iesu since wasn't he the one that chased off the money lenders, and didn't he say that it would be easier for a wealthy man to fit through the eye of a needle than to get into his father's kingdom?), I will take your word for that. I mean, look at Joan of Arc!

If you find a tailings pile, you have found something that has been worked sometime after about 1848, and likely by Americans.

Mike

Mornin all.

Heres my take on this whole speadin out of tailings , if they did this practice, as a prospector it would be very easy to find a mine where they did this.
even if spread out miles around that's what a prospectors does walks every inch of ground looking for that one out of place stone.

we are currently using a half circle search arc which me move in at 1/4 mile or so intervals, along the mnts base, we use this method as not to miss a trail remnant or camp site.
and I can tell you this if someone dug a hole you go do an honest search of an area on foot you will find evidence of such activitys.
trying to erase ones tracks out in the desert is very hard to do, it may be harder to spot evidence in the wooded areas as you have debris built up, but its not impossible geology is still there.
could you imagine all the work that went into the disposal of these tailings, just the act of roaming all over the land throwing fresh dug rocks on the country lands?

If they did this go look for it there should be plenty rocks that don't match the country rock look for fresh clean breakage from mining.
they surley would of missed a small piece of ore that would pinn down the geology for you the just work in circles start out from the possible source work your way in do this all on foot, nose to the ground I guarantee you will find something how old ? all depends on if they were there or not ?

I don't know why I even waste my time talking here on this subject all one has to do is go look for gold bearing geology it doesn't lie, find the geology find the mine !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How does one hide a mineralized shear zone ?
GT.....

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning. Coffee? Most people could stand beside an old Spanish mine and never recognize it. They were very limited in moving rock, so they only moved enough to get the job done, not for safety since Indians were expendible. A good burro was considered worth more.

Another factor is that old accessing trails are often visible in Aerial photos, but 'NOT' in Google. The same applies for old buildings of Adobe that are long gone..

Sooo if you find a special spot, send for Aerial Photos of it. With a pair of overlapping photos you can use a simple stereoscopic viewer and see things in 3d, but at the expense of vertical separation - It tends to exaggerate it somewhat.

The basic problem with Google is that it only supplies a true vertical, while aerial photos are normally oriented - developed to show shadows which helps with the 3D effect.

I found many old trails up at Tayopa this way, ones that are perfectly clear in the photos but almost impossible to see on the ground or especially with Google. While Google is a wonderful tool it is sadly lacking in many respects. They may post the newest version next year.

'Remember 'crudely' check with Google, then lock in with Aerial photos, especially with a stereoscopic viewer

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gold Tramp, you posted --> I don't know why I even waste my time talking here on this subject all one has to do is go look for gold bearing geology
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
True, but in the case of my mine, it was an anomaly which is why modern companies missed it - still do.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

T Tramp, G Tramp and chlsbrns. We know how to find disturbed ground when we're in the hills. It's not rocket science. I've literally found hundreds of old workings by noticing the obvious. It's the same as finding arrowheads - something looks different. So, if you want to hide your mine, you scatter the dump and conceal/camouflage everything else. I can post you a whole slug of pictures, but that's not the point.

The question is: who were the Spanish hiding their mines from?

 

[cactusjumper]

T Tramp, G Tramp and chlsbrns. We know how to find disturbed ground when we're in the hills. It's not rocket science. I've literally found hundreds of old workings by noticing the obvious. It's the same as finding arrowheads - something looks different. So, if you want to hide your mine, you scatter the dump and conceal/camouflage everything else. I can post you a whole slug of pictures, but that's not the point.

The question is: who were the Spanish hiding their mines from?

Springfield,

Other miners and the King's men.

Take care,

Joe

 

[chlsbrns]

The question is: who were the Spanish hiding their mines from?

The lizard people or whomever was residing in what are now ruins of the unknown.

https://www.google.com/#q=hopi+lizard+people&tbm=bks&tbs=bkv:r

https://www.google.com/search?q=ari...s=bkv:r,cdr:1,cd_min:1700,cd_max:1899&tbm=bks

 

[Somero]

Springfield

Considering the time period many European Powers were attempting to gather large amounts of resources from overseas and were in competition with one another over such resources. With that in mind I think (read it somewhere, not sure where) it was some form of decree by the Spanish Crown to hide any type of mining activity whenever possible, especially in "frontier" areas controlled by Spain and not just in the southwest but actually a "blanket" rule for any Spanish lands in the world.

So basically they were hiding mines from other European Powers that might be exploring in Spanish territory or if the territory in question fell under another power. After all you would not want to help finance your competitors ambitions by leaving obvious sources of wealth.

 

[eagle_scout]

Ok. Im glad some of you are paying attention. the original picture that i posted doesnt really do this area justice. so I dug through some old photos and found this one that shows my favorite hike outlined in Red. if you scan the ridge on the left, you can see the Longhorn. This old mine was originally just a trench. there are wagon wheel marks ground into the rock where they (whoever) were hauling them up and down the face. The tailings are at the bottom of the canyon...imagine that!
Ive got some photos of Culebra peak in Colorado of several of the crosses i found carved into cliff's and such. Ill post them as soon as i find 'em. this hike outlined on this picture is tough and i dont recomend trying it if you aren't absolutley sure you are capable. one miss step and you could fall into a crevasse and you'd never be seen again. I have picked up a few grab samples from this area and although there was gold, Its not worth risking your life for.

 

[Springfield]

Springfield,

Other miners and the King's men.

Take care,

Joe

First and foremost, IMO, nearly all of the 'Spanish mines' that people 'discover' are actually remains of Mexican and Anglo operations (ca 1820-1940's). Folks find some old workings - any old workings - and they think, 'Spanish'! It seems more romantic and important, I guess, and the treasure writers certainly push the concept. In the Mexican/Anglo period, it was a necessary option for a prospector/miner to hide his mine, since there were many more people in the area then and security from your own kind was more of a problem. So, some of the old workings from this era were concealed. Of course, hiding a small, near-surface operation, which most of these were, was relatively easy because there wasn't too much to hide.

However, the question raised deals with 'Spanish mines', and this is a good time to look at the reality of Spanish mining in today's American Southwest (which I've provided numerous links to in the past). The legal protocol, money, expertise and logistics required to locate and operate a mine ca 1600-1800 beyond the Northern Frontier, at the miner's own expense, precluded much activity at all north of today's border - far less than the treasure magazines would like you to believe. Why? It was cheaper, easier and more secure to operate mines in Mexico, where the deposits were richer and more plentiful, as they still are today. As always, it was all about the money. For the most part, the only significant producing USA Spanish mines were in NM/CO - where security for the miners was available from Santa Fe - and to a lesser extent, some spurious forays into the CA desert. How the Spanish operated/co-existed/whatever with the Jesuits in the southern Santa Cruz River area in AZ is still an open question in my mind. Overall, though, there was pretty sparse activity north of the border. Any old Spanish mines that got covered up were likely done by the natives, who hated the Spanish since day one.

The King controlled his percentage of the mining take (reasonably well) by controlling the mercury supply in the New World. The miners were shaken down for the King's tax when they returned to Mexico. The amount of mercury they bought from the Crown, and how much of it was used in the metal recovery process was known and accounted for. Then they paid up to the King's man. The Spanish military may have provided some protection for the miners, but had no particular reason to spy on them.

Below is a picture of some genuine Spanish artifacts (chicken ladder, ore bags, hand tools, ca 1750+/-) recovered from a gold mine near Santa Rita del Cobre, thought to have been concealed by natives. The Spanish military had limited success trying to provide security at Santa Rita, which was abandoned several times before 1800. These old workings were discovered when the nearby copper mines were expanding about a hundred years ago.

[Won't upload the jpeg. Maybe later.]

 

[gollum]

First and foremost, IMO, nearly all of the 'Spanish mines' that people 'discover' are actually remains of Mexican and Anglo operations (ca 1820-1940's). Folks find some old workings - any old workings - and they think, 'Spanish'! It seems more romantic and important, I guess, and the treasure writers certainly push the concept. In the Mexican/Anglo period, it was a necessary option for a prospector/miner to hide his mine, since there were many more people in the area then and security from your own kind was more of a problem. So, some of the old workings from this era were concealed. Of course, hiding a small, near-surface operation, which most of these were, was relatively easy because there wasn't too much to hide.

However, the question raised deals with 'Spanish mines', and this is a good time to look at the reality of Spanish mining in today's American Southwest (which I've provided numerous links to in the past). The legal protocol, money, expertise and logistics required to locate and operate a mine ca 1600-1800 beyond the Northern Frontier, at the miner's own expense, precluded much activity at all north of today's border - far less than the treasure magazines would like you to believe. Why? It was cheaper, easier and more secure to operate mines in Mexico, where the deposits were richer and more plentiful, as they still are today. As always, it was all about the money. For the most part, the only significant producing USA Spanish mines were in NM/CO - where security for the miners was available from Santa Fe - and to a lesser extent, some spurious forays into the CA desert. How the Spanish operated/co-existed/whatever with the Jesuits in the southern Santa Cruz River area in AZ is still an open question in my mind. Overall, though, there was pretty sparse activity north of the border. Any old Spanish mines that got covered up were likely done by the natives, who hated the Spanish since day one.

The King controlled his percentage of the mining take (reasonably well) by controlling the mercury supply in the New World. The miners were shaken down for the King's tax when they returned to Mexico. The amount of mercury they bought from the Crown, and how much of it was used in the metal recovery process was known and accounted for. Then they paid up to the King's man. The Spanish military may have provided some protection for the miners, but had no particular reason to spy on them.

Below is a picture of some genuine Spanish artifacts (chicken ladder, ore bags, hand tools, ca 1750+/-) recovered from a gold mine near Santa Rita del Cobre, thought to have been concealed by natives. The Spanish military had limited success trying to provide security at Santa Rita, which was abandoned several times before 1800. These old workings were discovered when the nearby copper mines were expanding about a hundred years ago.

[Won't upload the jpeg. Maybe later.]

Spring,

The Kings Percentage had nothing to do with the amount of mercury bought. Here is the official rule:

When you are still on the frontier, you may barter or trade in unrefined ore and dore bars. When you bring the ore/bars into the city (most smelted their ore into dore bars for ease of travel), you were required by law to bring your dore bars to the local mint. They would assay your bars and refine them into pure silver barros and/or coins. At that time, all the barros would be stamped with the Royal Seal (the reverse of an eight reale coin) several times. The King's Share would then be subtracted, and the balance returned to the owner.

Mike

 

[Springfield]

[I'm re-posting the following from an earlier related thread. There is a great deal of useful information herein for those who care]

http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1...nial+mexico%22
http://mygeologypage.ucdavis.edu/cow...15/115ch8.html

For those of you who care to know the truth about New World ‘Spanish mining’, particularly in Colonial Mexico and environs before the end of the Mexican War, I suggest you review some of the links provided above. For the period mid-1500’s to mid-1800’s, you will discover where the mining and exploration occurred, who was doing the mining, what extractive methods were used, the expenses and financing that were required to extract the metals (primarily silver), what skills and experience were required by the primary and highly paid miners, the availability of unskilled labor, and the Crown’s true involvement and its demands from the mining industry. Concerning the King’s demands, I’ll provide the following to consider:

.... More systematic was the state's contribution to the long-lasting expansion of silver production by establishing a sound legal and institutional framework that had little in common with the one assumed by various popular generalizations about colonial Hispanic America. By a series of measures enacted in the 1720s, the state mining policy in New Spain promoted growth indirectly. Especially important were the low and decreasing fiscal pressures—including total exemptions in some cases—on silver and mining inputs, the maintenance of law and order, the institution of a specific body (the Cuerpo de Minería and its Tribunal General) to defend and promote mining interests and prestige in 1776, the partial liberalization of foreign trade in 1778, and the promulgation of the relatively liberal—by international standards—mining code of 1783. There was no predatory colonial state confiscating the results obtained by individuals from their productive efforts in New Spain's mining industry. This was openly acknowledged by Ward (1828):

"The King (individually) was not proprietor of a single mine, nor is there one instance, since the Conquest, of an attempt having been made by the Government to interfere with the mode of working adopted by individuals, or to diminish the profits of the successful adventurer, under any plea, or pretence, from the more fortunate, a higher rate of duties than that which was payable by the poorest miner to the Royal Treasury. By this judicious liberality and good faith, the fullest scope was given for private exertion; and this, in a country where mineral treasures are so abundant, was soon found to be all that was requisite in order to ensure their production to a great extent."

Humboldt (1822) agrees with this judgment:
"All the metallic wealth is in the hands of individuals. The government possesses no other mine … The individuals receive from the king a grant of a certain number of measures on the direction of a vein or a bed; and they are only held to pay very moderate duties on the ores extracted from the mines." ....
Mining-Led Growth in Bourbon Mexico,the Role of the State, and the Economic Cost of Independence, By Rafael Dobado and Gustavo A. Marrero
No. 06/07-1 of The David Rockefeller Center for Latin American Studies, Working Papers on Latin America

Prior to the 18th century, you will find very, very little evidence of mining having taken place north of the Durango/Zacatecas/San Luis Potosi regions in Mexico. Yes, there was limited exploration and settlement above the Northern Frontier – in today’s New Mexico, Arizona and California - nearly all of which was well-documented by the state-sponsored parties, several private journals and letters, in the archaeological evidence and in the oral traditions of the natives encountered. In my opinion, there may well have been additional undocumented and well-funded expeditions of ‘free agent’ adventurers/prospectors that slipped under the radar, including possibly some of the religios. There is no doubt that there were also a significant number of small ‘wildcat’ Mexican forays to certain areas of the current American Southwest later in the 18th and 19th centuries. If 'Spanish' mining was widespread in today's USA, one would think the easy placer gold fields in California would have been an easy target. These placers remained untouched until the 1850's and later. Interesting, no?

 

[Springfield]

I'm having all sorts of posting problems lately. Anyway, here's some of those Spanish things they found at Santa Rita del Cobre when the modern miners (~1910) broke into a ~1750's Spanish mine hidden by the Apaches (described in an earlier post).

 

[gollum]

[I'm re-posting the following from an earlier related thread. There is a great deal of useful information herein for those who care]

http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1...nial+mexico%22
http://mygeologypage.ucdavis.edu/cow...15/115ch8.html

"The King (individually) was not proprietor of a single mine, nor is there one instance, since the Conquest, of an attempt having been made by the Government to interfere with the mode of working adopted by individuals, or to diminish the profits of the successful adventurer, under any plea, or pretence, from the more fortunate, a higher rate of duties than that which was payable by the poorest miner to the Royal Treasury. By this judicious liberality and good faith, the fullest scope was given for private exertion; and this, in a country where mineral treasures are so abundant, was soon found to be all that was requisite in order to ensure their production to a great extent."

Humboldt (1822) agrees with this judgment:
"All the metallic wealth is in the hands of individuals. The government possesses no other mine … The individuals receive from the king a grant of a certain number of measures on the direction of a vein or a bed; and they are only held to pay very moderate duties on the ores extracted from the mines." ....
Mining-Led Growth in Bourbon Mexico,the Role of the State, and the Economic Cost of Independence, By Rafael Dobado and Gustavo A. Marrero
No. 06/07-1 of The David Rockefeller Center for Latin American Studies, Working Papers on Latin America

This part couldn't be further from the truth.

In almost every cedula of mining, every King formally stated that all mineral deposits in their realm belonged to the crown:



.................. also, your source states:

nor is there one instance, since the Conquest, of an attempt having been made by the Government to interfere with the mode of working adopted by individuals, or to diminish the profits of the successful adventurer,

One has only to remember what happened with the "Planchas de Plata" Once the richness of the deposits were found out, all the finds were ordered to be rounded up and held. The Crown decided that since the deposits were so rich, they belonged to the Crown.

Mike

 

[Springfield]

... In almost every cedula of mining, every King formally stated that all mineral deposits in their realm belonged to the crown:

View attachment 919362

.................. also, your source states:



One has only to remember what happened with the "Planchas de Plata" Once the richness of the deposits were found out, all the finds were ordered to be rounded up and held. The Crown decided that since the deposits were so rich, they belonged to the Crown.

Mike

Old news, Mike. The 1383 rules evolved, as The New World was a new world for Spanish miners. You might find Mining-Led Growth in Bourbon Mexico, the Role of the State, and the Economic Cost of Independence, a paper published by the David Rockefeller Center for Latin American Studies, interesting. Things changed, particularly in Mexico. Following is an excerpt:

" ... More systematic was the state's contribution to the long-lasting
expansion of silver production by establishing a sound legal and institutional
framework that had little in common with the one assumed by various
popular generalizations about colonial Hispanic America. By a series of
measures enacted in the 1720s, the state mining policy in New Spain
promoted growth indirectly. Especially important were the low and
decreasing fiscal pressures—including total exemptions in some cases—on
silver and mining inputs, the maintenance of law and order, the institution
of a specific body (the Cuerpo de Minería and its Tribunal General) to
defend and promote mining interests and prestige in 1776, the partial
liberalization of foreign trade in 1778, and the promulgation of the relatively
liberal—by international standards—mining code of 1783. There was no
predatory colonial state confiscating the results obtained by individuals from
their productive efforts in New Spain's mining industry. ..."

Your point re Planchas de Plata is well-taken, but remember, the Crown declared the silver masses as a treasure trove, not a mining prospect, and claimed it.

 

[somehiker]

Are we talking about "we don't need no stinking laws" Mexico ?
All the laws in the world, written on paper, do little to govern the actions of a people at war with the elite since the days of the conquest.
I think that working around any legislative efforts to control mining has always been the goal of the successful small-scale operator.
Especially in outlying areas where enforcement may have been less effective.
And it is because of the secrecy involved, we have the many "lost mines and caches" to search for IMO.
Especially those from before 1767-8.

Regards:SH.

 

[Springfield]

Are we talking about "we don't need no stinking laws" Mexico ?
All the laws in the world, written on paper, do little to govern the actions of a people at war with the elite since the days of the conquest.
I think that working around any legislative efforts to control mining has always been the goal of the successful small-scale operator.
Especially in outlying areas where enforcement may have been less effective.
And it is because of the secrecy involved, we have the many "lost mines and caches" to search for IMO.
Especially those from before 1767-8.

Regards:SH.

You make some interesting observations, Hiker, but prior to the mid 18th century, who and why would miners venture north of about 25° north latitude? A simple question with a simple answer: except for a very few significant deposits noticed and exploited at the fringes of the northern frontier's scant colonization efforts, nobody. It was easier and safer to make money in the Sierra Madre - always follow the money.

The 'secret caches' are easier to disguise, rumor-wise, as 'Spanish' rather than what they really are - post 1860's. When you dissect the treasure magazine and old newspaper stories, most of the premises and details are illogical and implausible. There are caches alright - I think there's a big one in your Superstition stomping grounds. Might even be Aztec-related. All the LDM and PS hoopla is diversionary in nature, IMO. Why wouldn't it be?

 

[somehiker]

Why ?
Because there were still dragons to be slain in those days, my friend.
Although some may have found only windmills, others may have done well in regions other than the Sierra Madre.
But, like today, the money is not always easy to follow. Especially if the books were cooked,destroyed, or even cached as well.
Anything clearly Aztec in origin would certainly complicate matters, wouldn't it ?

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

windmills?

 

[somehiker]

"If, for my sins, or by my good fortune, I come across some giant hereabouts, a common occurrence with knights-errant, and overthrow him in one onslaught, or cleave him asunder to the waist, or, in short, vanquish and subdue him, will it not be well ..."
Don Quixote of La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

Why ?
Because there were still dragons to be slain in those days, my friend.
Although some may have found only windmills, others may have done well in regions other than the Sierra Madre.
But, like today, the money is not always easy to follow. Especially if the books were cooked,destroyed, or even cached as well.
Anything clearly Aztec in origin would certainly complicate matters, wouldn't it ?

Rule No. 13: the books are always cooked.

That Aztec possibility is what makes the game very interesting - dragon pieces on the chessboard, so to speak.